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Old 05-07-2015, 17:01   #196
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

The leopard 40 and 46 designed by Morelli and Melvin sail very well.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:10   #197
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Why would you think all cat's sail the same? Do you think all mono's sail the same? Surely you know there are heavy displacement cruisers, medium cruisers, performance cruisers, cruiser/racers, etc etc etc...

Same with cat's.

Take a look at some America's cup video's. Just so you know, those cats weren't motoring. Yes, they are extreme racing cat's. Huge performance, but no room. The Lagoons and Leopards are probably closer to the opposite end of the spectrum.

Just as you did with your Oyster, you just need to find the boat that fits you. And it may not even be a cat.
We tested the Leopard because that was the boat at the show that my wife and I liked at the time. We weren't in the market for a racing catamaran, just one that could make its way upwind similar, but not necessarily as well as the boat we had at the time, and would at the same time offer more living space.

We weren't inclined to test multiple catamarans... just the one which offered the demonstration sail... The Leopard. I drove four hours to get there and back, so We were seriously considering the purchase.

This thread is another attempt for us to find out some relevant information from cat owners regarding performance, and the vast majority of the cat owners who've responded so far have been helpful by providing their observations.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:22   #198
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Nice one.

Fortunately, we're not swaying here nearly as much as when we were on the Spanish coast. That definitely got ugly at times. Off the Guernsey coast... really ugly sway. Off St. Peter Port, Guernsey, even the catamarans left the rocky rolly anchorage. I stayed... It was gross.
You need a flopper stopper, Ken. While you're saving up for a catamaran.

As do I.

Your boat has exactly the same keel shape and hull form as mine, and it seems to really exacerbate rolling at anchor. I've had people get seasick with me at anchor

A flopper stopper will tame that down quite a bit.


The effect of flopper stoppers is highly dependent on how far outboard you can get them. My boom is 6 meters long but with aft-swept spreaders, I can't get the end of it all that far beyond the rail. Now I have a 7 meter spin pole which can be set up quite perpendicular to the boat's centerline; that ought to be much better.

Need to find some material and make one of those. Recommend you try it too since you spend so much time at anchor.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:36   #199
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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You need a flopper stopper, Ken. While you're saving up for a catamaran.

As do I.

Your boat has exactly the same keel shape and hull form as mine, and it seems to really exacerbate rolling at anchor. I've had people get seasick with me at anchor

A flopper stopper will tame that down quite a bit.


The effect of flopper stoppers is highly dependent on how far outboard you can get them. My boom is 6 meters long but with aft-swept spreaders, I can't get the end of it all that far beyond the rail. Now I have a 7 meter spin pole which can be set up quite perpendicular to the boat's centerline; that ought to be much better.

Need to find some material and make one of those. Recommend you try it too since you spend so much time at anchor.
I've just become more selective in my choice of anchorages and attentive to wind changes. Since leaving Spain, I haven't spend a single night in a rocky anchorage. Completely flat and glass like here during the evenings and early mornings.

Before I go back to Spain, I'll purchase a flopped stopper or a new catamaran.
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Old 06-07-2015, 01:40   #200
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Your boat has exactly the same keel shape and hull form as mine, and it seems to really exacerbate rolling at anchor. I've had people get seasick with me at anchor

A flopper stopper will tame that down quite a bit.


.
Where I come from, we would call that a design fault.

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Old 07-07-2015, 05:58   #201
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Yes, night sailing in perfect conditions can be magical. Night sailing in non-perfect conditions can be downright nasty. I bet you experience more of the latter than the former. Heck, it doesn't take a gale - just a 5* drop in temp below the dew point can make an open cockpit uncomfortable.

Many of us out there today live in constant intense sun and see the full starry night sky without any light pollution every single night. Frankly, I get more mesmerized watching the phosphorescence wake while underway at night because the milky way has become so normal. And I'm an astronomy buff.

For us, protection from the elements is our primary concern. If we do want to watch the night sky on those perfect nights, we just lie in the trampolines or sit on the side decks. Having done many passages in not-so-perfect weather in open or poorly covered cockpits, I will gladly join the ranks of your "Kroozers" to remain un-sunburned, warm and dry.

Frankly, I doubt your premise. I find it difficult to believe that something as simple as not seeing stars in perfect weather contributes in any way as to why many cruisers don't enjoy sailing at night (if that is even a true premise). We meet people cruising who see the same sky we do every night and still don't like night sailing. I think that to the extent it exists, it has to do with many other factors beyond that.

However, it does support the categorization of your preferred POV…

Mark
Those are all valid points, certainly... I admit, my style of cruising - and my time spent running other people's boats - is quite different from many. I'm not out there full time like you, nor am I sailing my home, and I cruise on a boat considerably smaller than most. My cruising tends to occur in 'spurts', and in 'delivery mode', the notion that "90% of cruising is spent at anchor" rarely applies, and the journey under sail is just as important as the destination, for me ;-)

Nor, do I spend much time under the hot sun of the tropics. When I do venture south, I have to configure an arrangement that will provide some shade. But what I see so many people doing today, is going with permanent structures that lack the ability to be 'convertible', or dismantled when not needed. How long ago it seems, for example, that dodgers were originally designed to be laid down when they were not required...

I've always liked the more versatile approach taken by some of the Scandanavian builders such as H-R, Malo, and Najad towards cockpit protection... A rigid windshield coupled with a 'convertible-style' dodger top that can be easily stowed in fine weather, and the provision to erect an additional temporary cockpit enclosure when desired...





This is the approach I've taken with my boat, and the versatility works extremely well on a small boat, and really enhances the sailing experience, for me... It's amazing how effective a windshield and cockpit weather cloths in terms of offering protection from the elements, while leaving the cockpit open for ease of sailing, and moving forward safely. Not to mention, affording a great view of the rig, sails, and the night sky... ;-)





As you well know by now, I detest full enclosures on aft cockpit boats... I've run a few, and have always been amazed how greatly they can inhibit the ability to actually sail the boat, or at least sail it well, and how impossible it can be to run such boats after dark... But, perhaps that's just me ;-)

But, in my observation, such drastic solutions taken by so many of today's cruisers to further insulate and protect themselves from the elements can only have the ultimate effect of reducing the amount of time spent under sail, and increasing the amount of time spent motoring... NTTAWWT, apparently... :-)

But as always, I could be wrong, I'm just going with what I've seen with my own eyes over the years...

;-)
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:02   #202
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Leopard 43.
Thanks, I'll have a look.

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Old 07-07-2015, 06:21   #203
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Those are all valid points, certainly... I admit, my style of cruising - and my time spent running other people's boats - is quite different from many. I'm not out there full time like you, nor am I sailing my home, and I cruise on a boat considerably smaller than most. My cruising tends to occur in 'spurts', and in 'delivery mode', the notion that "90% of cruising is spent at anchor" rarely applies, and the journey under sail is just as important as the destination, for me ;-)

Nor, do I spend much time under the hot sun of the tropics. When I do venture south, I have to configure an arrangement that will provide some shade. But what I see so many people doing today, is going with permanent structures that lack the ability to be 'convertible', or dismantled when not needed. How long ago it seems, for example, that dodgers were originally designed to be laid down when they were not required...

I've always liked the more versatile approach taken by some of the Scandanavian builders such as H-R, Malo, and Najad towards cockpit protection... A rigid windshield coupled with a 'convertible-style' dodger top that can be easily stowed in fine weather, and the provision to erect an additional temporary cockpit enclosure when desired...





This is the approach I've taken with my boat, and the versatility works extremely well on a small boat, and really enhances the sailing experience, for me... It's amazing how effective a windshield and cockpit weather cloths in terms of offering protection from the elements, while leaving the cockpit open for ease of sailing, and moving forward safely. Not to mention, affording a great view of the rig, sails, and the night sky... ;-)





As you well know by now, I detest full enclosures on aft cockpit boats... I've run a few, and have always been amazed how greatly they can inhibit the ability to actually sail the boat, or at least sail it well, and how impossible it can be to run such boats after dark... But, perhaps that's just me ;-)

But, in my observation, such drastic solutions taken by so many of today's cruisers to further insulate and protect themselves from the elements can only have the ultimate effect of reducing the amount of time spent under sail, and increasing the amount of time spent motoring... NTTAWWT, apparently... :-)

But as always, I could be wrong, I'm just going with what I've seen with my own eyes over the years...

;-)

My boat has something like that -- permanently installed windshield, deep sprayhood, and easily erectible/removable full cockpit enclosure.

For anyone thinking about such a setup, I can offer some points from my own experience with it:

1. A "convertible" full cockpit enclosure is not at all any kind of "virtual pilothouse". It's very hard to sail when it's up. You can't see the sails (guess you could put in a window), and you have to open the sides to get to the winches. It's hard to make it even slightly weathertight. I use mine mostly for closing up the boat well when I'm not on board, and I might even stop using it for that now that I have new helm covers. I've motored with it up a few times, but have sailed with it up I think only once or twice in six years.

2. The deep overhanging sprayhood, on the other hand, is worth its weight in gold. It gives you a place to get out of the sun or out of the rain (unless rain is blowing from behind), and keeps rain and spray out of the companionway. This pretty much replaces any need for a bimini. You have the best of both worlds with part of the cockpit open to the views, fresh air, and sun, and the other part sheltered. I very rarely take mine down.

3. The fixed windshield is a good thing, but mine is plastic, unlike the glass on HR's. That means I can't put windshield wipers on it, which means it's hard to see out of it when it's raining, something which makes the full cockpit enclosure even less useful. If you go this way, make sure it's glass, and fit windshield wipers for sure.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:00   #204
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Nor, do I spend much time under the hot sun of the tropics. When I do venture south, I have to configure an arrangement that will provide some shade. But what I see so many people doing today, is going with permanent structures that lack the ability to be 'convertible', or dismantled when not needed. How long ago it seems, for example, that dodgers were originally designed to be laid down when they were not required...
You need to spend more time south of 40*N, your hatred of helm covers would disappear quickly, the further south the quicker.

I would venture to claim that one day of open cockpit sailing this time of year in the Bahamas and south would cause you to stay at anchor and seek shade on day 2.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:03   #205
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Please excuse the mess, but I've been refinishing the port side deck all week. Here's the solution we came up with along with Dolphin sails.

A dodger/spray hood with a zippered front panel which stays open always unless we get too cold while sailing. The Bimini stays up nearly the entire summer for shade, I had several pre cancerous lesions frozen last winter, and don't need any more. The dodger gets completely dropped forward quite often when it's too hot and always when we're docking for fuel to increase 360 degree visibility, which is usually only once every two months or so.

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Old 07-07-2015, 07:34   #206
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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I've had people get seasick with me at anchor
Weavis says it is a "design fault".

My experience is that it more likely attributed to being "overserved".
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:10   #207
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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My boat has something like that -- permanently installed windshield, deep sprayhood, and easily erectible/removable full cockpit enclosure.
In the Nordic climate one step further is to have a pilothouse. My arrangement has been...

1) A pilothouse with a steering position, visibility to the sails, visibility 360 degrees around, vipers, a good heating system.

2) A wide overhanging sprayhood. Not very deep though, and without steering, and with a plastic window without vipers.

3) Rest of the cockpit for handling the ropes (some of them are under the sprayhood), with steering.

It would be ideal to make the sprayhood deeper so that it would act as a bimini too, and would have a third steering position, and vipers, and with (covered) acces to all the ropes. I would need a longer boat for that though. At the moment my cockpit is a far too small for this kind of arrangements (the sprayhood is also too low for standing under it). If I would travel further south, air conditioning would be a nice addition in the pilothouse (maybe also here up north in July).

I guess you already got the point. A set of steering positions from a warm one, to an open one. And a shaded one too. Maybe three steering positions is a bit too much. The outside steering wheel could be at the edge of the area covered by the deep sprayhood. Already now T-shirt sailing is possible in cold and rainy weather, but one could improve the system, especially with respect to protecting the crew from the sun.
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:29   #208
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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In the Nordic climate one step further is to have a pilothouse. My arrangement has been...

1) A pilothouse with a steering position, visibility to the sails, visibility 360 degrees around, vipers, a good heating system.

2) A wide overhanging sprayhood. Not very deep though, and without steering, and with a plastic window without vipers.

3) Rest of the cockpit for handling the ropes (some of them are under the sprayhood), with steering.

It would be ideal to make the sprayhood deeper so that it would act as a bimini too, and would have a third steering position, and vipers, and with (covered) acces to all the ropes. I would need a longer boat for that though. At the moment my cockpit is a far too small for this kind of arrangements (the sprayhood is also too low for standing under it). If I would travel further south, air conditioning would be a nice addition in the pilothouse (maybe also here up north in July).

I guess you already got the point. A set of steering positions from a warm one, to an open one. And a shaded one too. Maybe three steering positions is a bit too much. The outside steering wheel could be at the edge of the area covered by the deep sprayhood. Already now T-shirt sailing is possible in cold and rainy weather, but one could improve the system, especially with respect to protecting the crew from the sun.
Yes, I'm writing this from Finland, so I certainly get all of that.

I do want a pilothouse, but not a heavy motor sailer like a Nauticat. I need a normal sailing cockpit but with an inside helm station for long passages in cold or rainy weather.

But that will be a different boat from the one I have now. Probably a custom built one. Meanwhile I have to make do. On this boat, I stand watch from under the sprayhood, often standing on the companionway a step or two down, when the weather is bad. Dress warmly and use a waterproof tablet to control the helm MFD using GoFree. But when it rains hard, I can't see anything, and have to stick my head out around the side, which is a total PITA. Bleh.
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:06   #209
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Yes... But when it rains hard, I can't see anything, and have to stick my head out around the side, which is a total PITA. Bleh.

That weather thing sure is a PITA on a sailboat.😉


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Old 07-07-2015, 09:13   #210
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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That weather thing sure is a PITA on a sailboat.😉
t
You know, nearly all sailboats, even expensive so-called blue water ones, are essentially designed for good weather. I guess that's not illogical considering the fact that probably 99% of all of the owners of cruising sailboats use them mostly for weekends and week-long or at most month-long summer cruises with at most a once-in-a-lifetime ARC.

So how comfortable they are to use in bad weather is not foremost in the designers' minds, and they won't sacrifice a good sunbathing layout to gain it, just to please the 1% of us who sail in high latitudes and for months at a time.

When I realized that finally, I understood that I would actually need a custom designed boat, if I ever hope to improve on what I have now.

And for sure, that would have to have a snug indoor watchstanding position (no need for a steering wheel though; use pilot and joystick) with heat, windshield wipers, and good view of the sails, PLUS a good sailing cockpit within close reach of the pilothouse.
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