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Old 17-11-2018, 16:50   #1
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Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Below I have cut and pasted a copy from Fountaine Pajot website under ' Why buy a Fountaine Pajot quote '(Our boats are unsinkable in all conditions and feature a sacrificial skeg, crash box, balsa sandwich construction and other elements to guarantee optimal peace of mind). As i am interested in the new FP45 I am studying up on anything that may put a tick on the buy side of things, so folks that statement is huge to say the least, "unsinkable in all conditions!" I don't think I have seen that on any of the other two main stream manufactures web site. Well great if it is true, how does FP test that? other than trying to sink one? unlikely, be a disaster if the test failed, one assumes the engineers and designers can support that claim by build specifications.
Certainly would gain a tick on the buy side.
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Old 17-11-2018, 19:14   #2
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

It's not just FP. Most modern catamarans are constructed utilizing composites, whereby a core material, usually foam, is sandwiched between two skins of resin impregnated cloth. This yields a very strong, rot-free structure, which is not only stiff and torsion resistant, but also makes the entire configuration float. The volume of the foam used in the core of the sandwich alone is usually more buoyant than the entire weight of the boat, including machinery, crew, and cruising gear. Additionally, solid foam is usually integrated into the bows below the waterline.

The rule of thumb is that the only thing that will make you leave your cat is a fire. That said, there was recently a thread about an FP with failed escape hatches CAUSING it to founder (oh, the irony). All said and done, there has never been a safer time to be sailing on the open water.

As I said, "unsinkability" isn't really a differentiator between the big 3. I would learn the differences and decide which feels more right for you. Lagoons tend to be a little heavier and really maximize space. FP tends to have sexier lines and people boast they are less squeaky at sea vs Lagoon, but there are complaints about how cheap their interior cabinetry has become. Leopard tends to have a love it or hate it reputation based around the forward cockpit. People worry this cockpit could flood and become dangerous, but these boats are sailed all over the world without issue. People will speak of performance, but the ARC rally proves that a great sailor on a condomoran can be faster than a rich, but mediocre sailor on a supposed rocket.

For me, the FP 45 checks a lot of boxes and is on my short list as well.
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Old 17-11-2018, 19:37   #3
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Right OH,

I am one of the rare people, maybe one of the only? That have owned a new Helia 44 and now a Saba 50...

Facts:
Yes, the F.P. both my 2013 Helia 44 and the 2015 Saba 50 are the sexiest and best looking and best sailing of the three. I was even considering a Leopard 48, and had a new one in Contract with a 24 hour clause, and my Wife had a panic attack... I am such an Enthusiast of the F.P.s that I have owned two of the latest and greatest. The Leopard does not come with big enough engines to travel well at 7+ knots on one engine, IMO. And the front cockpit does hurt the layout, where the Saba has a front entertaining area and seats and cushions without hurting its layout.. And the Lagoon: Look, it hurts my eyes, most have the Main Sail up too high to handle, and they are a square and heavy and straight box lined "Made for Charter" boat, again IMO...

Now, being an Enthusiast, F.P. recognize me as having the FIRST Helia 44 in Australia, and now own the FIRST AND ONLY Saba 50 in Australia, so I have somewhat of a personal relationship with their Southern Hemisphere Representative, the French one and the two main Australian ones.. They have also seen and followed two huge Topic "Improvements to the Helia 44" with 50,000 or so followings, and the new one this year "Improvements to the Saba 50" with about 7000 so far... I am told some of it has influenced F.P. Now my credentials aside so you know this is not just another opinion, here is the F.P. Design Engineering:

No, the F.P. in modern terms at least, will not sink. There is so much Balsa Block core with fibreglass enclosures around each block so water cannot travel, and so much closed cell foam core below the water line and above, decks and all, that blown open hulls on a reef or something and She will still not sink even fully loaded, above about ankle depth in the main salon so I am told, by calcs and practice, and I believe it. In fact She will STILL SAIL, albeit slowly.. Heh he...

Take it for what it is worth, but I have worked on them and cruised them more than most and I believe this to be true beyond my doubt...

Kind regards Helia 44 now Blessed to be on a Saba 50....

BTW they both sail and motor about the same, but the Saba is more sea kindly and upwind cuts through 3'-6' wind waves that pushed the Helia around a bit... Both travel at 7 knots on one engine at lower RPMs around 2100, and both sail softly and nicely much faster...

After 45 years of this, seeing everything there is to see, fixated on the Boat Shows and second hand market, this is an educated opinion you can bet on...
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Old 17-11-2018, 20:14   #4
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Awesome feedback, Helia44.

Since you've sailed both, why do you think they perform equally under sail? The Saba is 15.7T at 49ft with a combined sail area of 1520sq ft. The Helia is 11T at 44ft with a combined sail area of 1238sq ft. By waterline length alone, I expected the Saba to be faster. Is the extra 9000lbs the great equalizer?
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Old 17-11-2018, 20:42   #5
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalas View Post
It's not just FP. Most modern catamarans are constructed utilizing composites, whereby a core material, usually foam, is sandwiched between two skins of resin impregnated cloth. This yields a very strong, rot-free structure, which is not only stiff and torsion resistant, but also makes the entire configuration float. The volume of the foam used in the core of the sandwich alone is usually more buoyant than the entire weight of the boat, including machinery, crew, and cruising gear. Additionally, solid foam is usually integrated into the bows below the waterline.

The rule of thumb is that the only thing that will make you leave your cat is a fire. That said, there was recently a thread about an FP with failed escape hatches CAUSING it to founder (oh, the irony). All said and done, there has never been a safer time to be sailing on the open water.

As I said, "unsinkability" isn't really a differentiator between the big 3. I would learn the differences and decide which feels more right for you. Lagoons tend to be a little heavier and really maximize space. FP tends to have sexier lines and people boast they are less squeaky at sea vs Lagoon, but there are complaints about how cheap their interior cabinetry has become. Leopard tends to have a love it or hate it reputation based around the forward cockpit. People worry this cockpit could flood and become dangerous, but these boats are sailed all over the world without issue. People will speak of performance, but the ARC rally proves that a great sailor on a condomoran can be faster than a rich, but mediocre sailor on a supposed rocket.

For me, the FP 45 checks a lot of boxes and is on my short list as well.
Thalas thanks for that well put, well I was not suggesting FP are telling fibs I just thought it an interesting subject. Having just sold my Lagoon 400 I have to say I have had eight years of enjoyment and satisfaction and great backup from Lagoon, even when we had a problem when it was out of warranty Lagoon still honoured that claim which was over $5K, and I think they are built very well, and appear more substantial than FP maybe at the expense of a bit more weight, I would buy another in a heartbeat but they just don't have the right size for us this time around. The FP 42 is nice, but for the extra I may as well go the FP45, it ain't perfect (for me that is) I hate the steering set up, but I am going on a one on one test sail on a FP42 to see if I can get my brain around it next week, re the FP45 I also don't like the lack of a traditional chart table, who wants to stand up and fiddle with the plotter, I don't like only one 470ltr fuel tank not enough range for a 45 footer and no second tank backup, but apparently it may be possible to have it duplicated have to wait and see, having said all that the compromises look acceptable, otherwise there is a lot to like about FP45.
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Old 17-11-2018, 22:35   #6
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helia 44 View Post
Right OH,

I am one of the rare people, maybe one of the only? That have owned a new Helia 44 and now a Saba 50...

Facts:
Yes, the F.P. both my 2013 Helia 44 and the 2015 Saba 50 are the sexiest and best looking and best sailing of the three. I was even considering a Leopard 48, and had a new one in Contract with a 24 hour clause, and my Wife had a panic attack... I am such an Enthusiast of the F.P.s that I have owned two of the latest and greatest. The Leopard does not come with big enough engines to travel well at 7+ knots on one engine, IMO. And the front cockpit does hurt the layout, where the Saba has a front entertaining area and seats and cushions without hurting its layout.. And the Lagoon: Look, it hurts my eyes, most have the Main Sail up too high to handle, and they are a square and heavy and straight box lined "Made for Charter" boat, again IMO...

Now, being an Enthusiast, F.P. recognize me as having the FIRST Helia 44 in Australia, and now own the FIRST AND ONLY Saba 50 in Australia, so I have somewhat of a personal relationship with their Southern Hemisphere Representative, the French one and the two main Australian ones.. They have also seen and followed two huge Topic "Improvements to the Helia 44" with 50,000 or so followings, and the new one this year "Improvements to the Saba 50" with about 7000 so far... I am told some of it has influenced F.P. Now my credentials aside so you know this is not just another opinion, here is the F.P. Design Engineering:

No, the F.P. in modern terms at least, will not sink. There is so much Balsa Block core with fibreglass enclosures around each block so water cannot travel, and so much closed cell foam core below the water line and above, decks and all, that blown open hulls on a reef or something and She will still not sink even fully loaded, above about ankle depth in the main salon so I am told, by calcs and practice, and I believe it. In fact She will STILL SAIL, albeit slowly.. Heh he...

Take it for what it is worth, but I have worked on them and cruised them more than most and I believe this to be true beyond my doubt...

Kind regards Helia 44 now Blessed to be on a Saba 50....

BTW they both sail and motor about the same, but the Saba is more sea kindly and upwind cuts through 3'-6' wind waves that pushed the Helia around a bit... Both travel at 7 knots on one engine at lower RPMs around 2100, and both sail softly and nicely much faster...

After 45 years of this, seeing everything there is to see, fixated on the Boat Shows and second hand market, this is an educated opinion you can bet on...
Wow. Interesting, thanks for giving us all the "facts".

In regard to unsinkable - who knows and I don't care. In a worst case storm situation, the boat has just as much chance of breaking apart as sinking. Really, don't focus on this as it's a looser thought process.
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Old 17-11-2018, 23:26   #7
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Claiming a boat is unsinkable is pretty silly. We have hundreds of years of nautical history proving otherwise. Here's a Lagoon that went down due to a midship crack/hole in one hull just under the waterline in a storm.
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Old 18-11-2018, 00:19   #8
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Claiming a boat is unsinkable is pretty silly. We have hundreds of years of nautical history proving otherwise. Here's a Lagoon that went down due to a midship crack/hole in one hull just under the waterline in a storm.
Heres another example from a few weeks ago.

Article says its a Seawind.

https://media.apnarm.net.au/media/im..._ct677x380.jpg

https://www.whitsundaytimes.com.au/n...irlie/3563095/
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Old 18-11-2018, 00:33   #9
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

I think y'all need to agree on the definition of sinking. There are four I can think of -

1.) must travel down to touch bottom, like most keelboats.

2.) any bit shows above water surface, i.e. tip of bow.

3.) awash.

4.) still able to enter cabin.
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Old 18-11-2018, 00:40   #10
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Claiming a boat is unsinkable is pretty silly. We have hundreds of years of nautical history proving otherwise. Here's a Lagoon that went down due to a midship crack/hole in one hull just under the waterline in a storm.
Isn't hat still floating?

Unless it's completely underwater, not including mast and appendages, then it hasn't sunk.
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Old 18-11-2018, 00:56   #11
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Claiming a boat is unsinkable is pretty silly. We have hundreds of years of nautical history proving otherwise. Here's a Lagoon that went down due to a midship crack/hole in one hull just under the waterline in a storm.
It's amazing that people today still can't grasp what Archimedes worked out a couple of thousand years ago. If the volume of water displaced by an object weighs more than that object, it can't sink.

And for some reason these same people think that showing photographs of boats that haven't sunk proves that they do.
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Old 18-11-2018, 01:19   #12
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

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'(Our boats are unsinkable in all conditions
Ridiculous.

Fire, Fire, Fire!

Let's see how they float when burnt to the waterline.
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Old 18-11-2018, 01:20   #13
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Our FP has Flotation foam in all 4 corners plus sealed compartments fore and crash bulkhead in front of that. There is a picture floating around of an FP Athena with the hulls ripped wide open and it floated level at about its saloon floor level across the Caribbean. I'll post it if I find it.
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Old 18-11-2018, 02:37   #14
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

Most modern cats won't go to the bottom if holed or otherwise flooded.

But it's generally a survival situation where you maintain a larger platform to survive on possibly with materials, food and water available...as opposed to a full keeler that will go down to the bottom with most everything it contains.

I wouldn't count on sailing home if the boat floods.
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Old 18-11-2018, 02:56   #15
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Re: Unsinkable Fountaine Pajot

every boat that is overloaded enough, will sink if holed. Most exposed are racy boats, that are used for leisure passaging. Or they get overloaded or there is a risk of hunger, or there is no toys to play with at destination.
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