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Old 07-02-2015, 17:19   #211
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Poozer View Post
Rainmaker was scheduled to be on show at the boat show">Miami Boat Show that starts next weekend. The weather report wasn't good, but they needed to take the boat down the coast. Was it unreasonable to expect this boat to be able to handle 35 knot winds and 4 meter seas? I would say not.
If you know for sure it was due at the Miami show, that raises all sorts of additional questions because if true, the crew would have had no reason whatsoever to cross the Gulf Stream and continue SE. I think the better explanation is that it was headed to St. Maarten because it was entered in the St. Maarten Heineken Regatta scheduled in early March. Their entry may still be visible on the regatta website. It was a few days ago when I looked. Further, it would not have been reasonable for any vessel to be at the Miami show for the duration and THEN attempt to get to SXM via the thorny path in time for the regatta.

It is entirely reasonable to expect this boat and most cruising boats to cope with 35kt winds and 4 meter seas. Why do you say not? What they actually endured is another matter.....

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 07-02-2015, 17:32   #212
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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If you know for sure it was due at the Miami show, that raises all sorts of additional questions because if true, the crew would have had no reason whatsoever to cross the Gulf Stream and continue SE. I think the better explanation is that it was headed to St. Maarten because it was entered in the St. Maarten Heineken Regatta scheduled in early March. Their entry may still be visible on the regatta website. It was a few days ago when I looked. Further, it would not have been reasonable for any vessel to be at the Miami show for the duration and THEN attempt to get to SXM via the thorny path in time for the regatta.

It is entirely reasonable to expect this boat and most cruising boats to cope with 35kt winds and 4 meter seas. Why do you say not? What they actually endured is another matter.....

2 Hulls Dave
Let's hope the bar is raised above 35 knot winds and 4 meter seas if you plan on taking a boat offshore.
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Old 07-02-2015, 17:59   #213
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

For those still wondering this was just posted within the hour on Peter's FB page:

Joining Gunboat on a search and rescue mission to try to recover Vandal's sister ship "Rainmaker" - she is still out there floating in the Atlantic waiting to b...e located. We've kitted out the SAR plane with orange dye and strobes to try to drop if we spot it, satellite phone and all of the most powerful binos we could muster. Let's bring her home.
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Old 07-02-2015, 18:08   #214
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Rainmaker was scheduled to be on show at the Miami Boat Show that starts next weekend. The weather report wasn't good, but they needed to take the boat down the coast.
I was among those that initially speculated that RAINMAKER was headed for Miami, but that has subsequently been shown to be in error... She was actually bound for the Eastern Caribbean, where she was gonna be raced in the EXTREME TECH CHALLENGE...

Oh, well - maybe next year...

https://twitter.com/brianscohen/stat...16269159858176
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Old 07-02-2015, 19:06   #215
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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If you know for sure it was due at the Miami show, that raises all sorts of additional questions because if true, the crew would have had no reason whatsoever to cross the Gulf Stream and continue SE. I think the better explanation is that it was headed to St. Maarten because it was entered in the St. Maarten Heineken Regatta scheduled in early March. Their entry may still be visible on the regatta website. It was a few days ago when I looked. Further, it would not have been reasonable for any vessel to be at the Miami show for the duration and THEN attempt to get to SXM via the thorny path in time for the regatta.

It is entirely reasonable to expect this boat and most cruising boats to cope with 35kt winds and 4 meter seas. Why do you say not? What they actually endured is another matter.....

2 Hulls Dave
Sorry for the double negative. What I am saying is that it IS entirely reasonable to expect a boat to handle 35 knots and 4 meter seas. My point about what they actually endured, is that had Gunboat provided accurate guidance on what the boat can really handle, they may have understood that triple reefed main and staysail was too much canvas for the conditions.
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Old 07-02-2015, 19:12   #216
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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I was among those that initially speculated that RAINMAKER was headed for Miami, but that has subsequently been shown to be in error... She was actually bound for the Eastern Caribbean, where she was gonna be raced in the EXTREME TECH CHALLENGE...
That's interesting. I was going off of this report from Multihulls World
Gunboat 55 at the Miami Boat Show 2015 - Catamaran and trimaran news from Multihulls World - multihulls-world.com
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Old 07-02-2015, 20:55   #217
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Interesting that this boat does not have a crossbeam near the bows.
I am quite curious why that is? It does seem to leave it vulnerable to head-on waves.
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Old 07-02-2015, 21:05   #218
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Interesting that this boat does not have a crossbeam near the bows.
I am quite curious why that is? It does seem to leave it vulnerable to head-on waves.
Weight savings, according to their video.
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Old 07-02-2015, 21:54   #219
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Something to be aware of for understanding weather forecasts is that they are usually averages. Since averages don't express maximum gusts very well, which is why, when the f/c's are forecast here in Australia, they include these two phrases: 1) maximum winds strengths may be 40% stronger than the averages given here; and 2) wave heights may be up to twice the height.

Now, comes one of the twice the height waves, along with a "puff" (if 35 was forecast) of 50 k. Of course, we none of us here on CF knows what actually happened to Rainmaker, but I have personal experience of squalls embedded in fronts, and I bet most long term sailors have, too. Normally, with our mono, we shorten sail to accommodate our understanding of the confluence of both sea state and wind strength. [It is not exciting to sail conservatively.] Someone posted here that Rainmaker had experienced a 70 knot gust. That is way, way, stronger than a 50 knot burst in terms of the danger it could put the boat in.

Here's a question for the forum: do you guys think advertising that the Gunboat is so fast it can sail around storms is in any way responsible? Do you think its construction would make it able to surf sideways down waves safely?

The more you think fast is fun, the harder it is to make yourself sail conservatively. Might that attitude possibly be a factor in this boat's loss?

The more experienced CF sailors are always writing that sailing to a schedule is dangerous. Sailing to get somewhere in time for the start of a race does constitute sailing to a schedule. What do you all think about that as a contributory factor?

This does not take into consideration sailing out into a major storm that was extremely well predicted. Another contributory factor?

I don't think we should condemn any of the crew, including the owner and the skipper, because we don't really know what happened. I thought the boat might have been damaged when it tried to come alongside the first potential rescue vessel, which would account for the observation that she was low in the water.

But if we're all going to be sharing the same ocean, maybe you all'd benefit from thinking about the above issues if you haven't already done so.

Ann
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Old 07-02-2015, 22:13   #220
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Currious- Where is CG report (public).
If going to Miami BS why not use ICW at least part way ?

Think some flaw in rigging out of factory in unproven/tested vessel or,just caught with to much canvas up! 35kts.4meter swell-not a terribly good showing!

In any event,poor judgement skippered this cat.

The company will have to say something or forever linger doubts about
their product.


All the Best
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Old 07-02-2015, 22:23   #221
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Something to be aware of for understanding weather forecasts is that they are usually averages. Since averages don't express maximum gusts very well, which is why, when the f/c's are forecast here in Australia, they include these two phrases: 1) maximum winds strengths may be 40% stronger than the averages given here; and 2) wave heights may be up to twice the height.

Now, comes one of the twice the height waves, along with a "puff" (if 35 was forecast) of 50 k. Of course, we none of us here on CF knows what actually happened to Rainmaker, but I have personal experience of squalls embedded in fronts, and I bet most long term sailors have, too. Normally, with our mono, we shorten sail to accommodate our understanding of the confluence of both sea state and wind strength. [It is not exciting to sail conservatively.] Someone posted here that Rainmaker had experienced a 70 knot gust. That is way, way, stronger than a 50 knot burst in terms of the danger it could put the boat in.

Here's a question for the forum: do you guys think advertising that the Gunboat is so fast it can sail around storms is in any way responsible? Do you think its construction would make it able to surf sideways down waves safely?

The more you think fast is fun, the harder it is to make yourself sail conservatively. Might that attitude possibly be a factor in this boat's loss?

The more experienced CF sailors are always writing that sailing to a schedule is dangerous. Sailing to get somewhere in time for the start of a race does constitute sailing to a schedule. What do you all think about that as a contributory factor?

This does not take into consideration sailing out into a major storm that was extremely well predicted. Another contributory factor?

I don't think we should condemn any of the crew, including the owner and the skipper, because we don't really know what happened. I thought the boat might have been damaged when it tried to come alongside the first potential rescue vessel, which would account for the observation that she was low in the water.

But if we're all going to be sharing the same ocean, maybe you all'd benefit from thinking about the above issues if you haven't already done so.

Ann
Very well put!

I have no reason to doubt that they were hit with a 70 mph gust, if that's what their official story turns out to be, or a combination of a 70 mph gust at the same instant as a large wave, I have no reason to doubt anyone who was there. In addition, I can understand that line of thinking you outlined, it kind of comes with the territory and advanced technology.

What I'm kind of curious about is perhaps carbon fiber isn't really the correct material for a mast. I've seen very thin CF body panels that were pretty flexible, and thicker panels that were very rigid. The question is, would it be better to design the mast with more give, or use it in conjunction with other materials so it has more give?

I truly have no idea, thus I'd welcome comments from those who do know more.
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Old 07-02-2015, 22:37   #222
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post

Here's a question for the forum: do you guys think advertising that the Gunboat is so fast it can sail around storms is in any way responsible? Do you think its construction would make it able to surf sideways down waves safely?


Ann
Who knows what the owners were thinking when they set out.

But Gunboat's advertising is reasonable - a boat that can average 10-15 knots or so CAN avoid most major storms.

But that presupposes the crew will TRY to avoid that storm. Sailing straight into one doesn't qualify as trying to avoid it. IMO.
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Old 07-02-2015, 22:46   #223
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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But Gunboat's advertising is reasonable - a boat that can average 10-15 knots or so CAN avoid most major storms.

But that presupposes the crew will TRY to avoid that storm. Sailing straight into one doesn't qualify as trying to avoid it. IMO.
So is this a case of a boat that is high tech, fast, and fragile? They can go anywhere safely, as long as the crew uses the speed to avoid storms.
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Old 07-02-2015, 22:48   #224
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Interesting that this boat does not have a crossbeam near the bows.
I am quite curious why that is? It does seem to leave it vulnerable to head-on waves.
Bulls eye. The Gun Boat people spoke highly of their revolutionary doing away with the front cross beam. Even saying they were the only catamaran in the world built without a front cross beam.

So lets look at what we know.

1. The mast and rigging came crashing down following a large frontal wave.
2. The front of the catamaran was built without a front cross beam

This leaves the question. Did the wave bring down the mast and rigging from a forceful direct hit of the mast? OR .... Did this powerful wave cause a structural separation that caused the mast and rigging to come down as the wave almost instantaneously followed through from crashing into the bow and then crashing into the mast.

I think it is incumbent on the boat builders to disclose the tests conducted on their new NO front beam cat. Again I want to remind everyone that the manufacturer himself brags that no other cat in the world has this design.

Should all such designed cats now be viewed with suspicion until this doubt over its structural design is satisfied one way or the other.

If this were a plane or car that had a new design that may be implicated in a serious life threatening crash then they would be grounded or taken off the road. What would the Government do if a totally new car design involving a cars front wheels and then this revolutionary new car was going down the road and the front wheels flew off? Certainly if it was an experimental novel new plane design that was involved in a crash, all remaining aircraft would be grounded.

There is enough here with the failure of this new kind of cat to call for a don't sail in a wave over 1' until a full investigation is made. If in fact there is a structural design fault then the manufacturer would have owners sending back their boats and demanding their money back. In my opinion.
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Old 07-02-2015, 23:23   #225
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Interesting that this boat does not have a crossbeam near the bows.
I am quite curious why that is? It does seem to leave it vulnerable to head-on waves.
I'm wondering what sort of protection from waves you'd say a forebeam offers?
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