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Old 05-02-2008, 06:20   #241
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Whimsical is absolutely spot on - the length of the bridgedeck is also a relevant factor (with Lagoon being an example of the worst of all worlds - very low clearance and very lengthy bridgedecks). And therapy, I suspect that examples of most boats you may wish to consider will be available in Southern Florida. When one considers the cost of purchase, it may be a good idea to book a week or two there and try some test sails when the appropriate weather window comes. It is not simply a matter of measuring (although it is a good place to start).

Brad
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Old 05-02-2008, 06:28   #242
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Whimsical is absolutely spot on - the length of the bridgedeck is also a relevant factor (with Lagoon being an example of the worst of all worlds - very low clearance and very lengthy bridgedecks).
I'll have to disagree with Brad on the Lagoons being the worst in this regard - at least the older models, e.g., 380, 410, 470. (The newer models may be another matter.)

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Old 05-02-2008, 06:41   #243
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Setting Sail 2009,

I have just completed the huge 2 year task of selecting a cat for extended cruising. I ended up similar to yourself with a shortlist of 3 boats but included in mine was the Leopard 46 which I have ordered for delivery in September. I discounted the Catana's early on. This was purely due to cost, when fully equipped it was the most expensive out of the initial 12 boats on my list. The Outremer was also discounted as itís a performance boat with very narrow hulls that didnít have the load carrying capacity for all the home comforts that we required (i.e. washing machine, aircon etc.). I personally could have quite easily done without a lot of gadgets but the admiral would have none of it so it was therefore removed. I will talk to you about the Fastcat in a moment.

As mentioned before on the Forum I produced a spreadsheet detailing features that were important to us and then scored each feature making sure we loaded items we felt were most important. I have spoken with Phil Burman a few times during my selection process and although Phil is extremely knowledgeable in this field, boats are very personal and at the end of the day he can only offer his opinion. If you want a copy of my spreadsheet send me your email address as I canít post spreadsheets on the forum. You can roughly fill in a spreadsheet using catalogues and the net but make sure you actually go and see it and preferably stay on board before you finalise your marks. The spreadsheet will help you stay focussed on what you want as I spent weeks swinging from one boat to another and then back again. A quick glance at the scores reminds you why you favoured that boat.

I had the pleasure of meeting Gideon early last year in Amsterdam when we went to view the Fastcat. I can honestly say I have never met someone so passionate about their company and product. The Fastcat was our other boat short listed, itís extremely light and very fast but has enormous load carrying capability, all the equipment and fittings are top of the range and the best available on the market, when you collect the boat Gideon spends at least 2 weeks with you teaching you everything about the boat systems and how to get the best performance out of it whilst sailing, the boat comes with everything, full safety equipment, extensive toolkit and all you would require for water sailing">blue water sailing. So you are now asking yourself why I didnít buy one? Price was the final factor (and not a lot, around 15% on top of the Leopard) and strangely enough if you look at it long term in about three years time they will have probably cost me about the same. Just to explain, the Fastcat uses Dyneema lines not polyester which will have to be replaced in a couple of years, better quality rigging, water pumps and all the other boat systems I will end up replacing earlier than I would have with a Fastcat. My trouble is currently the difference is too much unless I delay my program by 12-18 months, which Iím not prepared to do.

Adaero
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:49   #244
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Dave, I shouldn't have taken such a broad swipe at Lagoons - I don't have the figures here, but I believe you are right about the bridgedeck clearance of some of their earlier models. I was thinking of their current boats. The 440 in particular causes me concern - not only is the bridgedeck low in clearance and long in length, but the flying-bridge cockpit (or whatever they call it) raises the center of gravity dramatically, even over boats with higher bridgedecks. This is particularly so when the flybridge is occupied (as it must be). It also raises the center of center of effort of the sail plan dramatically. All three (low bridgedeck, high center of gravity, high center of effort) are the the exact opposite of what you should do in designing a cat for stability, safety and performance.

Brad

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Old 05-02-2008, 08:59   #245
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A low bridgedeck clearance is not good and if combined with a heavy cat for its size it can become a nightmare do not forget the fact that a light cat follows the waves much better than a heavy one that will dig in over and over again.
If you want to get a real massage get on to a loaded wildcat 35 , low bridgedeck pointing 60 degrees and you are in for the pounding of your life.
If cat manufacturers really would want to addres the problem all they have to do is lower the weight and 2 things happen automatically
The bridgedeck clearance goes up in case of the fastcat 455 1 CM or almost 1/2 an in for each 209 kilo,s and the boat follows the waves much better.
Before starting a cruise walk thru your boat and see if all you have on board is really nessecary or if you can do away with it.
Years ago I was into racing and before each race I emptied out my boat, in this case still a monohull later a mac gregor 36 and what a diffrence it made in speed , pointing and comfort.
We produce a owners manual and part of this manual is on how to load a boat and where to store your heavy items and makes a world of difference .
On the FastCat all the cabinets and storage places are within 9 ft of the centre of gravity , all heavy items like batteries , inverters , for the new green motion the generator are within 4 ft of the center of gravity
It works well.
Please think when you load up a boat , your clothing can be far away from the center of gravity while your canned goods and other heavy stuff needs to be right there.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 05-02-2008, 21:18   #246
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Despite the efforts at Kevin to stifle debate on this critical subject by referring to contrary opinions on the Manta as 'totally off the mark',
Brad,
I would really appreciate it, if you didnít try to put words into my mouth. I never said your comments on the camber spar jib were off the mark - I didnít say anything about those comments as frankly, I would prefer roller-reefing too. I never said your comments on bridgedeck clearance were off the mark either. I have a healthy scepticism about what constitutes enough clearance, but thatís another issue. I also never said that only owners of Mantas can express opinions on them. What I described as "off the mark", was your specific comment to Mark - if I may paraphrase you: "Sure Mantas can venture out of sheltered water for short periods, but theyíre not designed for it; even the Manta company says so." You donít like the "off the mark" remark - fine, I retract it. What I really meant to say, was that your comment was erroneous, fallacious, imprecise, wrong, ill-informed, misrepresentation of fact; itís 100%, USDA Grade A Prime bull-plop. But not off the mark. Are you happy now?
Iíll be happy to discuss bridgedeck clearance with you tomorrow; itís late and Iím going to bed.
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Old 06-02-2008, 00:51   #247
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Hi, Rick! You can block my posts by going to your profile, scrolling to the bottom left, and putting "BigCat" on your ignore list. You can do this, of course, for any poster whom you find tiresome, or who insists on challenging your eternal verities. If I posted all day every day, I still wouldn't have equal time with proponents of the marconi rig, about which I cannot find enough bad things to say. I think I speak from considerable experience, having owned an Ericson 35, a Catalina 21, a Catalina 27, and a Catalina 42, and having sailed the Ericson from Newport CA. to Honolulu to Seattle to Long Beach, Ca. A "proven" rig? I wonder what the first Laodah (junk captain) thought when he saw his first marconi rigged yacht sailing in Hong Kong Harbor? The junk rig was ancient when the Europeans wished they knew how to sail to windward so they wouldn't have to die on lee shores. I saw working junks a good eighty feet long under sail in Hong Kong in 1980, still delivering good performance on all points of sail. I do remember how I laughed when I bought a dingy hull in Whangarei in 1977 and put a junk sail on it. A guy with the same hull couldn't best me on any point of sail when we sailed at the same time in Whangarei. He was clearly pretty frustrated. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I must challenge a worldview which insists that popular ideas must be right, just because they are popular. Seventy years ago, Obama couldn't have aspired to a higher position than janitor, because "everybody knew" that black people weren't fit for more. I remember seeing segregated toilets and drinking fountains in service stations in the deep South when I was a boy and my family was passing through the South. Segregation was a very popular idea in your neck of the woods then. Remember? I know you are old enough to remember that. But, those of us who embrace the idea of progress work to keep the best of the old, and to improve the rest. That is why I am one of many working on adding a foil shaped sleeve and camber to the many virtues of the junk rig. Should the result still be called a junk rig? I don't know or care. I just know that it will be more reliable and aerodynamic than the marconi rig, and still have the superior economy, seaworthiness, and seakindliness of the junk rig. For more about how I got involved with the junk rig, check out: Trying to design my own cat. - Page 19 - Boat Design Forums For other efforts in this area, check out: Wharram Tiki 30 sailing (mod) Page 2 SV Aphrodite -- the Beginnings y
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:51   #248
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You are in luck

We will sell our prototype this spring , it has everything you need for circomnavigation from watermaker RIB Outboard dual furuno radar GPS life raft complete set of carbon 3 d sails and every other goody that one might need , the only items not on this boat are airconditioning and heating but can still be installed
Unfortunately the price, even on a second hand cat from you, is out of reach on my budget.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:59   #249
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I discounted the Catana's early on. This was purely due to cost, when fully equipped it was the most expensive out of the initial 12 boats on my list.
The only thing I can hope for is to luck out on a good second-hand one.
Quote:
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The Outremer was also discounted as itís a performance boat with very narrow hulls that didnít have the load carrying capacity for all the home comforts that we required (i.e. washing machine, aircon etc.).
I'm not planning to set sail with all the extra gadgets, so the Outremer would still work for us. It is quite spartan, which is the reason my admiral is giving it the thumbs down.
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I had the pleasure of meeting Gideon early last year in Amsterdam when we went to view the Fastcat. I can honestly say I have never met someone so passionate about their company and product.
Gideon has been very friendly and forthcoming in all my correspondence with him. The problem for me is that the price, even on a second hand cat, puts a FastCat out of reach.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:07   #250
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I wonder what the first Laodah (junk captain) thought when he saw his first marconi rigged yacht sailing in Hong Kong Harbor? The junk rig was ancient when the Europeans wished they knew how to sail to windward so they wouldn't have to die on lee shores.
Hi Tim,
I understand you're very passionate about the junk rig, but when I started this thread I was looking for a cat that would fit me, according to a list of features I found desirable. I asked for people's input and I've received many replies from a variety of people, that have enabled me to modify my list. This feedback has been incredibly valuable. I thank you for your input about the junk rig, but I think I've made it clear in several posts that I'm not a fan it. If you wish to write more about it, please do so in a separate thread.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:21   #251
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Lagoons are the best, pound for pound

A Lagoon wins the Catamaran Class in the ARC Rally 2007 (12/14/07)




For this new edition of the ARC Rally, Lagoon was strongly represented with 14 catamarans on a total of 26. This year for the first time the complete Lagoon range was taking part in the rally.

Lagoon crews have done an amazing race placing 7 Lagoon among the 10 first catamarans to cross the line and 3 among the first 4 boats. The Lagoon 67 Perle Noire won an impressive 1st place in the catamaran class and arrived 5th over all after a 13 day crossing!!

Also to be mentionned the great performance of the L440 Annamare who arrived 4th in the catamaran class only a few hours after the L570 Dada and the 58ī Safari.

A party was organised for all the Lagoon crewsto decompress before the departure gathering more than 65 for an entire night of food and music.

We sincerely hope the see even more owners coming next year.

Once again a Grand Bravo to all the participants!


Does crossing the Atlantic count as blue water cruising? After reading some of these posts I figure I must be confused about something?

-John
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:45   #252
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Lodesman, I have no desire to debate anything with you. I've made my posts and others can determine who was 'way off the mark'. I have been trying to contribute by expressing opinions about a boat based upon the literature and by citing examples. It has nothing to do with a debate between us - rather, it was an attempt to provide some constructive information to someone considering some cats for a circumnavigation and their suitability therefore.

Although you insisted that I had implied that I had personal experience with the Manta (and that perhaps I shouldn't comment on it unless I did), that was clearly not the case. In fact my opinion was clearly expressed as being based solely upon the published bridgedeck clearance of the boat and some widely accepted standards.

Another reason I suggested that the Manta was less than ideal as a circumnavigator was the standard camber-spar jib; I am surprised to hear that you agree with this.

As to the whether the Manta was designed as a circumnavigator, I really have no idea. I too understand that the boat was originally stolen from a plug made off of a previous design by Eric Lerouge. What his original intentions were for the boat I do not know. I only know that Manta seems to be marketing it as an ideal circumnavigator, a proposition that I continue to question.

You rejected my earlier peace offering that 'honest men can honestly disagree'. That is fine. But rather than prolonging a senseless debate about me being 'way off the mark', why don't you provide a meaningful contribution with some recent cites of other naval architects who suggest that the bridgedeck clearance of the Manta (and its standard camber-spar rig) are ideal for a circumnavigation.

Brad
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:36   #253
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John, this thread was started by a request for opinions on the characteristics that someone should be looking for in a 35 - 45 foot catamaran, intended for a circumnavigation with a small crew. Can Lagoons cross the Atlantic with the prevailing winds? Undoubtedly. Of course, people have also rowed across the Atlantic.

There have been concerns expressed here concerning the suitability as a circumnavigator of some of the current Lagoons in that size range. The 440, in particular, has a very high center of gravity (and center of effort) compared to virtually any cat in the same size range because of the 'flying-bridge cockpit', or whatever it is called by Lagoon. I have little doubt that the windage created by this would be a real boon in the largely moderate to brisk downwind conditions experienced in this race (in fact in some conditions, she would probably move like a scalded cat with only bare poles).

However, in a circumnavigation most people would prefer a lower center of gravity, a lower center of effort, less windage and more bridgedeck clearance. As to the 410 - the litany of problems with this boat have been highlighted elsewhere on this site, although it seems that Lagoon is already (barely a year after introduction) attempting to rush into place a MarkII to address at least some of these concerns.

The new series of Lagoons provide incredible bang for the buck if one is considering accomodation and liveability. The interiors in the 410 and 440 are well thought-out, finished and incredibly spacious; the decks provide amazing space for lounging. They make ideal boats for the Charter industry and yes, they are quite capable of making a crossing of the Atlantic with the prevailing winds, particularly at a favourable time of the year.

However, that is not the issue being addressed in this post: do they possess the characteristics that most people would be looking for in a 35-45 foot cat intended for a circumnavigation with a small crew?

Brad
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Old 08-02-2008, 19:51   #254
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Lagoon crews have done an amazing race placing 7 Lagoon among the 10 first catamarans to cross the line and 3 among the first 4 boats.
Hi John,
Impressive. What I like even more is that the top two Lagoons were sailing under Norwegian flag (I'm Norwegian).
Having said that I'm not a big fan of the Lagoons, for different reasons, but it shows that just though a cat is mostly associated with the charter market, that it can also do very well as a blue water cruiser.
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Old 08-02-2008, 21:19   #255
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I think the lagoons in the ARC were what, half of the boats, more than half? It's not that hard to win when you own all the dogs on the track!
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