Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[smj]

Brad, The reason the Manta bridgedeck is not unique is because the original Manta 38 mold was pulled of a Lerouge boat, a Jeffcat 42. Something I believe Mr. Lerouge is not very happy about. The Oceancat mold was also splashed of a Lerouge design.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

surely these issues are legitimately subject to debate, rather than a suggestion that a contrary opinion is 'totally off the mark.'

Brad,

You said:

"I am confident that even Manta would not suggest that they designed or built the boat with a view to circumnavigating."

With respect, that comment is totally off the mark. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, and you've brought up a lot of good points that a prospective buyer should consider; but statements like the one above imply you have experience (with Manta) that you don't. That said, I'd like to hear more about the cat you have (or cats you've had) and what you like/dislike about it.

I believe the current Manta evolved from a Lerouge design - I'll clarify my remark, that compared with other production cats in the Manta's class, its under-bridgedeck shape is unique.

It's been discussed earlier in this thread - bridgedeck clearance is, in itself, a compromise. Higher BDC equates to more windage and a higher centre of gravity - both undesirable qualities. I'm still waiting for anyone to provide any quantitative study of differing BDC's - wave-tank tests, comparison between boats that are identical save for BDC, or what have you. Anecdotes about how two entirely different vessels coped in roughly similar waters, are the proverbial apples and oranges comparisons.

Kevin

[Stella Polaris]

It's been very interesting to read the discussion about the Manta. Though I haven't sailed extensively on one, I have been on a day-sail on a 42mkIV (In very light winds - We were moving forward doing about 50% of the 5 knot wind-speed) and I have been onboard 2 others (an MKII and an mkIV).

My thoughts are as following:
- I like the lay-out of the Manta (though I am undecided about accessing the forward starboard cabin through a head - I dislike it, but it keeps the hulls narrow and to be honest that cabin will only be used for light storage when we sail and once in a blue moon when we have more than 2 people sailing with us.
- I think the galley is awesome.
- The quality of build and the selection of equipment used onboard is top shelf and excellent.
- The electric wiring is done fabulously and I think everything is done in a well though out manner.
- The twin anchoring solutions are thought out and easy to use.
- It's easy to sail for one person.
- None of the owners I've spoken to mention any problems with slamming or problems with bridgedeck clearance ... They say that the bridgedeck shape helps eliminate or a least minimize the problem.
Though Manta is perhaps not advertised as a circumnavigator, they (Manta) definitely think that it's no problem to do so.
Their reputation is that of a mom and pop cruiser: ICW, Bahamas and South Florida. Just because that's what their reputation is, it doesn't mean that it's the only thing they can do. I've spoken to several Manta owners that have taken their Mantas half-way around the World. We all know that owners are jaded, but the fact that they've taken their Mantas far can't be disputed.

Though I really like the Manta, there's a couple of things I don't like:
- Though all the owners love the comprehensive aluminum bimini, I think it's a bit too much... In essence I don't think it's very esthetically pleasing. There's no disputing it's usefulness and once I was onboard I loved being able to sit in the "high seat".
- The salon feels a bit dated. It's the only way I can explain it. The windows are too small and I feel like there are other designs which look better inside.
- Sailing ability. I think the Manta is an OK performer, but it won't be the best performer. There's always a compromise: speed, price or comfort. Pick any two of the three. Currently I'd like a bit more speed.
- The Manta is small inside, because it is a twice stretched 38 footer and not a "true" 42 footer.

I think the Manta will be an awesome boat to live on, but it will leave a little to be desired when you're sailing from A to B. Is it something I could live with? ... Yes ... probably ... We'll see if I end up buying a Manta, if I do, then obviously I think it is. Until I do, I will however keep my eyes open for other cats that might fit me better. I think the Catana 431 is awesome, but there is the issue with the price ...

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

I don’t have a lot of experience with cats, having been a monohull sailor my entire life. Now that I’m planning a circumnavigation, I’m seriously looking at catamarans. The thing is that I don’t have the knowledge compounded by owning and sailing several cats, so I turn to you.

When trying to pick a cat that will be good for water sailing">blue water sailing and comfortable to live on for a few years what characteristics do you think I should look for?

Here is a list of what I’ve put down, that I hope you will comment on:
1. Size. In order to live comfortably, I think it should be between 35 – 44 feet in length. This is from both a safety and a comfort point of view (and budgetary restraints).
2. Visibility from inside when seated. Many catamarans I look at have a large saloon, with lots of light coming in from the windows, but as soon as you sit down on the couch, you don’t see the horizon outside. I consider it important not only for safety, but also for the pleasure of looking outside that you should be able to have as close to 360 degrees visibility as possible when seated in the saloon.
3. Good sailing performance. Some cats sail great when they have no extra gear on board, but are sluggish and have poor performance when they get loaded with the gear and supplies necessary for a circumnavigation.
4. A forward facing nav station inside.
5. A good galley up.
6. A comfortable cockpit with good protection from the elements.
7. A high bridgedeck clearance, but how high is enough? … How is the trade-off between clearance and windage?
7. A good targa for solar panels, radar, GPS and dingy davits.

Things I don’t really want:
1. Daggerboards – When you live and sail on a boat constantly in new waters, there is a large chance, no matter how careful you are, that at some point in time you will have “a-touch-and-go” or a grounding. With daggerboards that could mean serious structural damage to the cat.
That's actually all I could think of now, but I'm sure you can think of more.

These are the design things I've thought of so far. In terms of on board things, like heating, watermaker, etc., I have a long list as well, but since these are the same for mono’s and multi’s, I only want to look at specific design elements on a cat in this thread. If you know of cats that have many desirable design elements or examples of great design, I would love to see them or read more about them.

What you are discribing is exactly what I have done before building the FastCat 435
I have attached my wish list prior to building this performance cat.

greetings

gideon goudsmit

[Southern Star]

Andreas, I agree with many of your comments on the Manta but would still suggest some caution concerning the bridgedeck clearance, and the standard camber-spar jib on a boat intended as a circumnavigator for you and your family. Please read all the the literature that you can and please take an upwind test-sail of the Manta, while loaded in a way that approximates the load that you can expect to carry on a circumnavigation, into a serious chop and winds of at least 20 knots true.

Although Kevin believes that only the owners of the Manta (or those who don't own, but somehow have significant offshore experience in them) are entitled to express opinions on the boat, you should use your common sense. Firstly, note that even Kevin does not take his own advice. Secondly, although it has been (thankfully) over 30 years since I have taken any courses in psychology, there is a phenomenon known as 'cognitive dissonance (sp?): briefly, while people tend to weigh up the pros and cons of a prospective large purchase, once they have made up their minds and made the purchase, they tend to underemphasize the negatives and overemphasize the positives. This is also, I'm sure, why the prior owner of one of the largest mulithull dealers in the world has written in a recent article (I believe it was called 'The 10 Commandments of buying a Multihull) that one cannot rely upon the opinion of brokers or owners of similar boats in determining the ability of a particular cat to sail upwind in heavy conditions. I will look for a cite tonite, if I get the chance.

Despite the efforts at Kevin to stifle debate on this critical subject by referring to contrary opinions on the Manta as 'totally off the mark', my comments concerning the recommended minimum for bridgedeck clearance in an offshore cat are well-founded in the current literature. Again, i will check tonite when home for a citation, but the 10% of max. beam figure was espoused in a recent article wherein three of the leading designers of multihulls were interviewed on various subjects concerning the design of the cruising cat. As I recall the N.A.'s included Nigel Irons (who has designed boats that have won virtually every offshore race of significance) and Chris (I believe that is his name) White - the designer, as I recall, of the highly regarded Atlantic series of Cats.

The suggested preferred minimum of 24" comes from another article wherein, as I recall, the author canvassed numerous designers of cats and came up with that as a consensus figure. Again, I'll try to find the cite.

The point is that there is sound reason to doubt the adequacy of the bridgedeck clearance of the Manta when sailing upwind in rough condtions. The allegedly 'unique' under-bridgedeck shape of the Manta (or now, 'unique when compared to production cats of its class' - whatever that means) is anything but unique. As SMJ points out, the Dazcat had a similar shape. So too does the Solaris Sunstar 36 (also designed by Eric Lerouge). In fact, most cats produced by Fountain Pajot, Outremer and Atlantic also sport underwing forms that are gently curving and free of protrusions AND YET THEY INSIST ON BRIDGEDECK CLEARANCE IN LINE WITH THE ABOVE FORMULA!

As to the camber-spar jib, I am confident that I can also locate cites of well-known naval architects extolling the advantages to roller-reefing in a cat designed for cruising. As for Kevin, by definition he should be able to cite even more examples of recent contrary opinions in the literature concerning bridgedeck clearance and camber-spar jibs, particularly from naval architects, since my opinions (and those they mirror) are 'totally off the mark'. We'll see.

Regardless, I am suggesting that some real caution must be exercized in accepting the opinions of anyone, including myself: be wary of current owners for the reasons discussed; be wary of brokers; be wary of ANY opinion that is not backed up by some reputable sources. You are about to spend a great deal of money on a boat in which to circumnavigate with your family. It is sad, but true that even with what is at stake in terms of cost, comfort and yes safety for family, you will be confronted with so many conflicting opinions, even upon matters over which there should be very little debate. I am confident that you will continue to do your homework and will eventually arrive at the perfect choice for yourself, even if not for Kevin or for me.

Brad

[smj]

Our Solaris Sunstar 36 has a lot of similarities to the Manta as they were both at one time a Lerouge design. In fact some people refer to the Solaris nSunstar as a mini Manta. Our bridgedeck design and clearance are about the same, and I am amazed at how little slapping let alone slamming that we have had. The design really seems to work. We haven't had a chance to really test the boat as she is pretty new to us, but were motoring into 20plus knots of wind with 3-4 foot closely spaced chop with no slamming maybe a slap or two. We also had hardly any hobbyhorsing. We have owned 5 cats and I am comparing the motion and slapping on this boat compared to our other 4 cats.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by smj

We have owned 5 cats and I am comparing the motion and slapping on this boat compared to our other 4 cats.

Care to enlighten us as to the other 4?

[BigCat]

You can combine boomed jibs and roller reefing by mounting your jib boom on a post, though I prefer to eliminate jibs altogether and make a self-tacking rig that has easy reefing and furling as an intrinsic part of its design. -TD

[Southern Star]

Herewith some offered authorites:

1. Regarding the need to have a sea-trial in heavy air, rather than relying upon the opinions of owners/brokers concerning a particular catamaran: Phillip Berman, The Ten Commandments of Buying a Catamaran, Blue Water Sailing, December 2007, at p. 58.

2. The requirement for a bridgedeck clearance of at least 10% of overall beam in order to avoid slamming in an offshore catamaran: Chris White, Bill Biewenga, Nigel Irons, Cruising Multihulls through the eyes of the Pros, Blue Water Sailing, March 2003, at p.48.

3. The 'consensus' minimum bridgedeck clearance of 24" for a 41 foot offshore cruising cat (and the preference of some designers for even more): James Jermain, The Taming of the Cat, Sail, January 2003, at p. 68.

4. The advantages in performance and safety (and the ability to get a 'reasonable shape when deeply furled') with roller-reefing headsails on cruising cats: Chris White, Bill Biewenga, Nigel Irons, Cruising Multihulls through the eyes of the Pros, Supra., at p. 50.

Take note that Nigel Irons, apart from being a prolific designer of both multis and monos, is also famous for having designed the record breaking multi Formula Tag, as well as other boats that have won the Route de Rhum and the Jules Verne trophy for the fastest circumnavigation.

Chris White has, of course, also been a designer of multis for over 30 years. His most recent designs include the highly respected, offshore capable Atlantic 42, 48 and 55.

Bill Biewenga has extensive experience offshore in multihulls, including Great American II in which he broke the clipper ship record from New York City to Melbourne.

Author James Jermaine cites numerous naval architects, including Ian Farrier who opted for 33 inches bridgedeck clearance in his own 41 foot catamaran.

Obviously I am not the only one who believes that the bridgedeck clearance of the Manta (whether 20" or 18" as previously published in cruising world) is below the generally recommended minimums and is , therefore, something that should be carefully considered by anyone looking to circumnavigate in the same. Further, the rarely used camber-spar jib is also an arrangement that is less than ideal in a world cruising catamaran. If I am 'totally off the mark', then so are these well respected naval architects.

Further, I have never said that the Manta would not be capable of a circumnavigation, only that these are real issues that merit serious consideration by the prospective purchaser. Despite the histrionics in some posts, I continue to urge Andreas to read the literature and to take a sea -trial in a loaded boat, upwind in high winds and significant chop, before deciding on this (or any other comparable) cat for his intended circumnavigation.

Brad

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Further, I have never said that the Manta would not be capable of a circumnavigation, only that these are real issues that merit serious consideration by the prospective purchaser. Despite the histrionics in some posts, I continue to urge Andreas to read the literature and to take a sea -trial in a loaded boat, upwind in high winds and significant chop, before deciding on this (or any other comparable) cat for his intended circumnavigation.

Brad

Thank you for those resources.

One question I don't remember the answer to is; when measuring bridge deck clearance is the number the minimum or the maximum? They all seem to taper to less in the rear of the boat. If max then what is the min. and the resultant implications.

Also, I will have to rely on someone else's tests as there is not any way I can imagine that I will be able to narrow it down to 3 or 4 boats and get that sailing opportunity. I would not be able to take that amount of time off to go somewhere and chance that the weather predictions are correct. Of course I am always one lotto ticket away from the possibility!

[smj]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Care to enlighten us as to the other 4?

catfisher 32
gemini 3200
cherokee 35
edel 43

[Whimsical]

Therapy
The number is the recomended minimum fully loaded. On mine Schionning has clearance @ 12%, 800 mm on 7 meters. Mine is a flat bridge deck but on some they drop the centre, longitudinally, area some what. Schionning does this on the smaller models to, I presume, reduce windage and Fastcat to achieve even greater clearance in the aft section. The slamming will be more noticable at the ends of the bridgedeck. The lowest point shoud not really be at the aft end of the deck. Boats with longer decks will experience more slamming than those where the deck is kept short so on its own just the clearance doesn't tell the whole story. Those aimed at the charter industry with a long deck for lots of accomodation combined with a low deck hieght are the ones I would be most suspicious of. The flat part of my deck is 7.5 meters on 12.3 LOA or about 60%, quite short compared to say a Lagoon 420.

Mike

P.S. I still have some sandpaper waiting for you.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

What you are discribing is exactly what I have done before building the FastCat 435
I have attached my wish list prior to building this performance cat.

Hi Gideon,
The Fastcat 435 is by far my favorite catamaran for a circumnavigation, unfortunately I don't have the budget to buy one. Let me know if a second hand one comes on the market, because then I will pounce.

[fastcat435]

You are in luck

we will sell our prototype this spring , it has everything you need for circomnavigation from watermaker RIB Outboard dual furuno radar GPS life raft complete set of carbon 3 d sails and every other goody that one might need , the only items not on this boat are airconditioning and heating but can still be installed
This is the cat that has covered over 440 NM in 24 hours and has seen a top speed of well over 25 knots
She is coppercoat antifoiled has carbon ruder stock ( we went away from that because of the high cost )
If you are interested we can talk details
My e mail address is gideon@africancats.com

greetings

gideon

[Stella Polaris]

Hi Brad,

Though the time for me to buy a boat is fast approaching, I am not planning to do something rash. I definitely hear and agree with your criticism of the Manta. Along with my own thoughts, they are the reasons why I haven't bought one (or decided to buy one yet). I have about a year from today to decide on which boat to get, so though time is ticking, it's not running away. If my "perfect" boat comes on the market tomorrow, at a price I can afford, then I'll buy it, so I am in "buying mode" now, but I'm analyzing every step of the way.

The discussions on the forum, though heated at times, is exactly what I need, because different aspects and features that I might not have thought about are brought into the open.

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Secondly, although it has been (thankfully) over 30 years since I have taken any courses in psychology, there is a phenomenon known as 'cognitive dissonance (sp?): briefly, while people tend to weigh up the pros and cons of a prospective large purchase, once they have made up their minds and made the purchase, they tend to underemphasize the negatives and overemphasize the positives.

I know and this is definitely in the back of my head when I talk to owners.

Originally Posted by Southern Star

This is also, I'm sure, why the prior owner of one of the largest mulithull dealers in the world has written in a recent article (I believe it was called 'The 10 Commandments of buying a Multihull) that one cannot rely upon the opinion of brokers or owners of similar boats in determining the ability of a particular cat to sail upwind in heavy conditions.

In addition to owners and brokers, you can also add builders.
I've spoken to Phil Berman many times and he is of the same opinion as you on the Manta. He has narrowed the field enormously for me and currently only the Catana 431 and the Outremer 50 light measures up to par on "our" list. I'd add the Fastcat to that list, but knowing how far out of reach it is money wise, there's almost no point. Both the Catana and the Outremer are also too expensive (but I could get lucky), so though I'm narrowing the field I also need to look outside those 2 (3 with the Fastcat) designs.