Cardio Equipment on Board

[Adamante]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Adamante, Katiusha:

I stand by what I said. You are letting the media and other athletes scare you to death with little basis.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Always gratifying to see a fellow senior athlete kick ass in competition. I know how personally exhilarating it is to be able to successfully compete with guys half your age.

But I am surprised you are so dismissive of the importance of maintaining a high level of fitness for someone used to vigorous athletic activity. Perhaps our definitions of “vigorous athletic activity” differ. I run 100 miles per week, every week, year-around and race 60 -100 times a year. There is no periodization in my schedule, therefore there is no “off season”. Periodization is more appropriate for high school and college kids to accommodate the school year and vacations. Recreational athletes, including senior runners and Master Fatty cyclists, mostly train and race year-around.

Given this volume of running, my body has adapted over the years to accommodate the large blood flows pumped through my legs. When I run, so much blood is delivered to the muscles of my lower extremities that the capillaries have had to adapt by becoming more permeable.

All is fine as long as I maintain the increased blood flow. When I stop running, there is not enough blood circulating in the lower body to effectively remove the accumulated fluid and some of it leaks into the intercellular space, which causes swelling of the surrounding tissues. It’s called “dependent edema” and can be quite uncomfortable and potentially dangerous on a boat because it affects agility. It would be kind of tough to move nimbly on a pitching deck with swollen legs and feet. The only effective cure I have found is to resume running on a daily basis.

So if I am on a passage longer than, say, a couple of days, I have basically two choices: I can either exercise for a few hours every day to prevent the swelling - or I can tap my femoral arteries and use the bilge pump to help circulate my blood. I think I’d rather get the indoor rower.

The other issue is psychological/chemical dependency and the associated withdrawal issues. Once the body gets habituated to a very high level of activity, it can be quite problematic if the physical stimulus is suddenly withdrawn.

My marathon tapers, for instance, are only five days long, but frequently involve episodes of extreme irritability and feces-throwing rage. I can’t imagine what would happen on a two- or three-week passage. I think it might be a lot safer to get the indoor rower.

I realize that my lifestyle does not constitute a typical cruiser’s profile, but this problem motivates me to search for a reasonable solution. So far, the best solution I have come up with is getting a roomy catamaran, installing an indoor rower, and going sailing around the world in an aerobically fit style. That’s the plan anyway….

[niel12]

Zeehag and Billy i agree with you guys but wow Billy that exercise sounds like commiting suicide!

When doctors do EKG tests you needto run up an down steps like 40 times to get the ticker going and boy does he go! So what simpler way can there be at sea than to run up and down the stairway leading to the hulls on a cat. There one can determine how many times up and down and how frequently while at sea!

So lady, you need cardio vascular excercise ... no problem, get a cat!

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by Adamante

So what are you saying… that boating might actually involve some compromises?

But that’s just the thing, I’m not sure I am willing to compromise on this one. I stubbornly believe there must be a solution. My generation wants to have its cake and eat it too (well, maybe not cake - too many carbs).

I’m sure you are aware that there’s something called “specifity in training” that says that you should train in the sport you intend to compete in. Just as there is really no substitute for working-out with free weights, if you want to get good at running, you can’t bike, swim, or play volleyball - you must train by running. So by proposing to use an indoor rower I am already compromising to a great extent.

And as far as getting off the boat in Tahiti and setting a marathon PR – well, I just want be able to run it without keeling over. And not necessarily in Tahiti, but the Easter Island marathon is definitely on my list. I just wish they had better anchorages at Easter Island…

I'm 33, so either in or somewhat close to the "me" generation. It's just not physically possible for you to have ideal training conditions at sea as you would on land. The upshot is that your conditioning really isn't that fragile and honestly unless you're putting in sub three hour marathon times you're not that fast. Be a little honest with yourself as to what your lifetime athletic achievements are going to amount to. I'm not advocating zumba classes and shakeweights, but unless you have the genetics and time/money to become an olympian why train like one when you can operate at 60% of that schedule and put in the same times?

The best half marathon time I ever put in was 1:31, and that was with my daughter two weeks old. I got maybe five hours of sleep spanning the two days before hand, and ran a 15 mile day near race pace the week before because I forget when my race was. Did everything completely wrong, and still kicked a time in that I'm really proud of.

I see it in weight lifting too. People get caught up on all these little stuff because obsessiveness lends well to fitness endeavors, but it's the years and years of consistent hard work that represents the vast majority of your status. What you've done in the last month is really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Think of all the people who have come back from having children (five times in the case of a gold medalist swimmer in the last olympics) or cancer, or car accidents, etc.

My fitness is here to allow me to live a long and healthy life, do physical things, and walk around with some pride in my body. It's a means to an end, not the end itself. You've got to find some balance in there to make it work. I mean honestly, do you really want to be the kind of person who passes up sailing through the south pacific because it affects your marathon times a little bit, and you can easily make that up?

I would much rather cross an ocean than catch a flu or step off a curb wrong.

[Katiusha]

A full-blown rower sounds good, but I'm still trying to find a space for it... In the meanwhile I also came across this Turkish company that makes fitness equipment: Voit. Looks like they have some things with small profile: Voit a

"Kosu Bandi" means treadmill.
Kondisyon and eliptik bisiklet are self-explanatory.

I'll try to find a store that sells them around here and test them out - I'm not confident of their quality. If interested, will tell you what I find. Lmk

[Dennis.G]

Katisusha,
Possible a space on deck to jump rope? Good cardio and easy to store the equipment. Can't have a tether on while doing it, so don't go jump'n overboard.

I know that their is no possible way that a treadmill could fit on my boat. Not unless I ripped out a good portion of my interior.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Katiusha

A full-blown rower sounds good, but I'm still trying to find a space for it...

Get a kayak, lower it off the back, and keep up.

Actually, I'm only half kidding, We added a kayak this summer and in addition to the pleasures of quiet paddling in harbors and wetlands, it offers great exercise potential, when you push the pace up. Consider it.

[Adamante]

Originally Posted by Katiusha

"Kosu Bandi" means treadmill.
Kondisyon and eliptik bisiklet are self-explanatory.

And I guess "Kondisyon Kurekleri" means rower...

Yeah, I'd love to hear what you find, let me know. If you have read some of my other posts on this thread, you can see I am very interested.

BTW, be wary of the little rowers with the oar-like handles. I found those to be very gimmicky, you are basically working against an air cylinder. Very boring. The Voit model R-808 looks like it might work, it's very similar to the Concept2 with the flywheel. There is something very satisfying about spinning up that big flywheel and making it whir with every stroke. I can see spending a couple hours a day on something like that, but not on the little rowers.

There’s actually one more piece of workout gear that might be worth considering for you. Back when I was into skating in the mid-90’s I got a Reebok slide board. I think it was mostly because it had a picture of Nancy Kerrigan on the box, but I found it surprisingly effective.

It’s a super-slick piece of plastic you just roll out on a flat floor and glide between the bumpers on either side. It makes for exceptionally good workout and the range of movements ought be quite compatible with your x-country skiing background. It would be a little tough to use in a choppy sea, but I suppose getting into rhythm with the waves might be incorporated into a workout strategy. The best part is the storage – it rolls up to the size of a rolled-up beach towel.

Here’s the one I have, the original one with the picture of Nancy Kerrigan, but there are other makes: ORIGINAL REEBOK SLIDE W/ BOOTIES AEROBIC, BODY, LATERAL | eBay

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Adamante

But I am surprised you are so dismissive of the importance of maintaining a high level of fitness for someone used to vigorous athletic activity. Perhaps our definitions of “vigorous athletic activity” differ.

Not so much as you might think. In college I was racing at differences up to 150 miles and training perhaps 200-300 miles each week, depending on the season. But I did find that my best performances followed a 3 month cycle, with base miles, then intervals and hard training, then peaking, followed by a few weeks of easier riding. In part this is because the type of racing I did required both endurance AND the ability to turn on a 35 mph sprint from time to time. Different. Also, I found if I didn't break it up, I could fall pray to certain over use injuries. You don't seem to have this tendency, but probably most athletes do, so my comments were more general.

Another thing I've learned, take it for what it is worth: when I start back after a layoff, my lungs and heart are fine, it's my legs that always seem limiting, specifically their ability to load enough glycogen (I hit the wall sooner and my top speed is lower). Speed and distance come with time, but relatively quickly, since the deconditioning of the cardio system seems less and I can push the workload up pretty fast after a brief rest--a few weeks--which is what you are considering. I think if you can contrive ANY cardio work, your legs will recover quickly; they will be rested and ready for a heavy load work.

In truth, I was trying to calm some of your concerns. I doubt you'll lose anything you won't enjoy training back within a month. The "dependent edema" and bilge pump comments were interesting. I think you are right to find a solution!

(I gather dependent edema is primarily a running thing; it's nearly unheard of among cyclists. It's a difference in the sort of motion and the impact. In fact, google delivered several references where low force/high RPM cycling was use for treatment of runners. In fact, many cyclist insert a certain percentage of higher rpm days in their plan for this very reason--a spinning day promotes better recovery than a rest day. I wonder if an exercise bike might better treat this particular risk, but I would ask someone knowledgeable. Not that I'm trying to make a cyclist of you. I'm not, I swear, and it wouldn't work anyway.)

[zeehag]

lie on your back, put your pelvis up in the air in your palms of your hands which are on the ends of bended arms and pretend you are riding a bicycle. easy and doesnt require steps nor machinery. row your dinghy daily.
engage in life!!!! the easiest exercise machine that is most efficient--your own body.

[Adamante]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

... honestly unless you're putting in sub three hour marathon times you're not that fast. Be a little honest with yourself as to what your lifetime athletic achievements are going to amount to.

The concept of lifetime athletic achievements can be absolute or relative, depending on your context and your temporal frame of reference (love that term!). For example, it’s unlikely you are ever going to exceed your performances from high school or college unless you turn pro. But so what? Does that mean you should kick back and back off from being super-competitive just because you are past your prime? Should you allow the thought of “I’m never gonna be that fast again” keep you from maximizing your performance regardless of your age?

I guess that would depend to a large extent on your personality. In my case, just as a dog is compelled to chase every school bus, I feel a compulsion to compete even if there isn’t a formally defined competitive situation. If there isn’t a race, I create one. I think it might be a manifestation of the “obsessivness lends well to fitness endeavors” you have noted.

It also helps that I am a late starter. I’ve never been athletic in my prime years, so I can’t compare any earlier performances to the current ones. I got into athletics well into my “mature” years, so all my performances are relative.

Luckily, runners can easily adjust race times to account for age differences. You might be familiar the scoring system that attempts to compensate for the age differences among runners. It’s called a “WAVA Table” and it’s basically a statistically derived age handicapping scheme. You plug your age, your distance and your time into a formula and it spits out your point score. Your point score is indicative of your performance adjusted for your age.

WAVA Calculator

The point score is then graded as follows:

100.0 = World - Record Level
over 90.0 = World Class
over 80.0 = National Class
over 70.0 = Regional Class
over 60.0 = Local Class

For example, the 1:31 you ran at the half at age 33 scores you at 65. That means you are solidly in the “Local Class” and you can expect to place well in your age group in any local race. That’s a very strong performance, especially since your other sport of weightlifting is really incompatible with running.

I am a specialist. I just run. My age-adjusted performances are currently in the ”National Class”. My best race is the 5K where I’m at 86. My other distance scores are progressively lower, with my marathon time being the weakest – I’m right at the breakpoint at 79.2. I haven’t run that many marathons so far and it takes experience to learn to optimize your marathon performance. I did make an attempt at a sub-3 last year, but after running a PR split at the half (1:26), I flamed out spectacularly with a final 3:11 . Talk about bad pacing… still a massive marathon PR though… and there’s always another day.

So you can see that with those kinds of results my running is über, über important to me. At this point in my life I am not willing to compromise my conditioning to go cruising. But I’m also not willing to abandon the idea of cruising. Thus the quixotic quest to find a solution to unite the two worlds. It may not be possible, as you note, but I need to try anyway. It’s the competitive thing again…

Sorry for the long-winded response to your well-written advocacy of a more balanced approach. I just wanted you to understand that you are basically dealing with a fanatic.

[Adamante]

Originally Posted by zeehag

lie on your back, put your pelvis up in the air in your palms of your hands which are on the ends of bended arms and pretend you are riding a bicycle. easy and doesnt require steps nor machinery. row your dinghy daily.
engage in life!!!! the easiest exercise machine that is most efficient--your own body.

Very poetic. Thank you.

[DudeistSailor]

For cardio conditioning - how about a paddle board? You can even do HIIT style training on it by doing rigorous high intensity paddling for 1 min at a time, followed by lower intensity paddling for 2 minutes, or you can do mid-range intensity for that cardio aspect of it.

As for strength training - what about a combination of TRX and some adjustable dumbells (Bowflex, Powerblock) that go from 5 - 130lbs or so. Between those two you can work your chest, shoulders, back, legs, arms and no need for any large racks - it's also a benefit of working with dumbells as it increases the strength of your stabilizer muscles.

Those are the things I was considering as far as for fitness on a liveaboard - I work out regularly, and would not be a fan of taking weeks off at a time very often. I'm also wondering if there would be a way to rig up a pull-up bar as well - something that could easily hold 200+ lbs without compromising any structural integrity of it's mounting surface.

My 2c

[Adamante]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Not that I'm trying to make a cyclist of you. I'm not, I swear, and it wouldn't work anyway.)

I’d make a terrible cyclist. A while back I tried a duathlon - a 5k run, a 30K bike ride, another 5K run. Day before the race I bought a road bike on Ebay, so no chance to practice. Did great on the two runs, but on the bike section just about the entire field passed me. I think there were old ladies on Schwinn cruising bikes shaking their black umbrellas at me as they blew by me.

I believe I ended up in the top 50% overall, but only because of the runs. Never rode the bike again.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Adamante

I’d make a terrible cyclist. A while back I tried a duathlon - a 5k run, a 30K bike ride, another 5K run. Day before the race I bought a road bike on Ebay, so no chance to practice. Did great on the two runs, but on the bike section just about the entire field passed me. I think there were old ladies on Schwinn cruising bikes shaking their black umbrellas at me as they blew by me.

I believe I ended up in the top 50% overall, but only because of the runs. Never rode the bike again.

I've got torn cartilage in my knee and can't even run to the bathroom (scarcely and exaggeration). When I realized I could get back on the bike, it was a gift from heaven. But I was always a terrible runner. I tried a 10 K once, in the winter when it had snowed but I was still in very good shape. I finished somewhere in the pack--it felt fine--but the next 4 days I felt as though I had been run over twice.

[hellosailor]

Cardio equipment, pedals on board...A Boston Swan Boat! No need to trim sails or mess around with rigging on that, either. The answer has been in Boston, all along.