Capsized/Pitchpoled Atlantic?

[Tropic Cat]

Well, yes and no. First off, I don't believe that many cats turn turtle. More often than not, when it occurs, it's a dagger board equipped cat that went over.

I maintain that modern cats are at least as safe as a monohull, but when we do read about one going over the monohull guys are all over us.

A Gemini 105 went over off the coast of Jacksonville FL this past summer, in a squall. He was caught with his lee board down. The newspaper made a bid deal about it as the boat washed up on shore. Made for great photos and headlines and gives cats a bad name. So, it's not me per se , making a big deal about it, it's the real world that does.

Rick in florida

[Talbot]

He was caught with his lee board down

and was probably not in the cockpit. short handed and dagger boards are not a good mix.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rickm505

I maintain that modern cats are at least as safe as a monohull, but when we do read about one going over the monohull guys are all over us.

A Gemini 105 went over off the coast of Jacksonville FL this past summer, in a squall. He was caught with his lee board down. The newspaper made a bid deal about it as the boat washed up on shore. Made for great photos and headlines and gives cats a bad name.
Rick in florida

That happens. When a cat goes over there is something to photograph. With a mono, it's usually a tiny article on page 10 about a boat being overdue on passage, then weeks later it is presumed lost. No photo's, because there is nothing to photograph.

[yotphix]

You can bet that monos missing on passage did not capsize in a gust of wind. Maybe the fancy canting keel broke off or maybe rolled be a large steep breaking wave but not by wind.

[RandyAbernethy]

Boards are obviously a personal preference. If you are not sure you want them then you probably don't, however. My wife and I are laid back cruisers, we like getting there and enjoy a spirited sail but my line (not anyone elses) is drawn short of the dagger board mark. Some folks just don't want to manage an additional underbody appendage.

(and I certainly don't want more rig, I have to wait for almost all of the bridges already! :-)

[Tropic Cat]

Randy,

Good point. I've already made the point that Cats with daggerboards do require more crew attention, in exchange for better windward performance.

Upon reflection, I think the real problem is the inherent stability of a catamaran leads some folks to have a false sense of security. Lodesman, what I meant by my original comment was that when your boards are down, you Have to be near the mainsheet, not in the saloon having a drink.

Rick in Florida

[fhrussell]

Originally Posted by rickm505

... when your boards are down, you Have to be near the mainsheet, not in the saloon having a drink.

Rick in Florida

Rick, I couldn't agree more, but have to point out that perhaps it's not only the boards, but the wind and sea conditions that create the risks more so than the boards alone. If the winds were up around 15 -20 knots, full sail, I would think it was poor judgement to be sheeted off and in the saloon! Does anyone know anything about the skipper's prior experience in multihulls?

I have been sailing w/ daggerboards almost exclusively, so I'm open to being enlightened about rough weather sailing in skegged boats. Great topic!

[Talbot]

I would think it was poor judgement to be sheeted off and in the saloon!

Doesnt even come close to my view of this.

[fhrussell]

Originally Posted by Talbot

Doesnt even come close to my view of this.

Do tell....

OK...crazy, insane, rediculous.....etc.

[Talbot]

Bloody irresponsible verging on negligent

you did ask!

[Steve Rust]

In response to Joli's post about Dashew saying 4-7 percent of multihulls going missing in the Pacific. I remember reading this comment many, many years ago and recall that he had no evidence to back it up other than hearsay and I knew somebody who knew sombody who had a cousin type of crap. I remember the figure quoted as 10 percent. Chris White pretty well debunked it in his book. With that high of loss rate there would not be any of us around after a few decades, think about it. But ohhh...it's Dashew so it must be true.

Back to the topic at hand. Cat's are incredibly stiff and have a higher initial stability than trimarans or monohulls. But that stability rapidly decreases once the windward hull lifts clear of the water. It seems that many of the daggerboard cats seem to be more performance orientated and are lighter thus the potential may be there to fly a hull. You guys with the fixed keel heavier cruising cats do you think you could fly a hull without resorting to extreme measures? To have a wind induced capsize in a cruising cat borders on incompetence IMO

[Talbot]

Originally Posted by Steve Rust

It seems that many of the daggerboard cats seem to be more performance orientated and are lighter thus the potential may be there to fly a hull. You guys with the fixed keel heavier cruising cats do you think you could fly a hull without resorting to extreme measures? To have a wind induced capsize in a cruising cat borders on incompetence IMO

yes agree. which is really what rick and I have been saying.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Steve Rust

You guys with the fixed keel heavier cruising cats do you think you could fly a hull without resorting to extreme measures? To have a wind induced capsize in a cruising cat borders on incompetence IMO

I've never even come close to flying a hull. I think I could if I tried real hard under the right conditions. But this is Talbot's point, as I would be grossly incompetent if I did this.

Rick in Florida

[Talbot]

Rick, I have lifted one hull up abt a foot", but that left another couple of feet of hull still in the water, It is also self defeating cause when a catalac is pressed hard, it is going sideways at a significant rate (i.e. leeway)

This also happens when you try to heave to. On one occasion, I reckon I was doing abt 4 kts sideways.

[Tropic Cat]

Yeah, we are a little 'beamie'. When I enter my marina and turn beam on the wind, I find myself being blown sideways at 2kts. It's always a challenge to exactly time my engines as I'm watching my boat go past my slip sideways.

The most I've seen is about 5 - 7 degrees of heel when I was hard on the wind in about 18kts with genoa and main up. I felt that I was at the limit of my comfort zone of using the genoa as this heeling was unsettling!! I know it's hard to believe but I almost spilled my beer!!

If I want to 'lean' I would have bought a 1/2 boat.

Rick in Florida