Capsized/Pitchpoled Atlantic?

[Saildude]

Word is that once the boat was dryed out the owner never sailed it again and eventually sold it.

Pics seen here:

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize1.jpg

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize2.jpg

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize3.jpg

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize4.jpg

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize5.jpg

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize6.jpg

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize7.jpg

http://www.liberatoryacht.com/images/capsize8.jpg

[ssullivan]

Thanks for posting this, Saildude. It sheds some more light, but not being a catamaran skipper, I have no clue how it could have happened. Any cat owners have any ideas? Microburst? Autohelm mishap?

[Moby Dick]

I must say I am confused. Mostly it is said that cruising cats never go over, and yet Alan Wheeler implies that they are flipping all over the place in NZ. Which is correct?

Despite that this is the first evidence I have seen of what apperas to be a modern cruising (if 'performance orientated) cat going over.

[fhrussell]

I've been sailing multihulls, large and small for most of my 41 years (I'm talking since I was 3 weeks old) and mono's (only racing) for about 20 years. I believe multi's are as safe as mono's and all accidents are due to the skipper's experience, abilities, and judgement. Neither craft is less safe than the other. That being said......

In regards to her going over, I am surprised that they would be sailing in autumn weather, in this area of the world, at 15+ knots of steady wind with the autopilot on...?! This is a very gusty season in this area. Gusts must have been 20 - 25+ knots and they apparently had full sail, if I read correctly. Sounds like operator error to me...as is usually the case in these situations.

I'm still not convinced on the use of interior helm stations for a cat....and I think the world of Chris White. But, in a performance cat (albeit for cruising as well) the skipper should feel that wind....and NEVER cleat off the main in wind over 15 knots....unless she's over 70 feet.

[yotphix]

It is hard for me to believe that cats are just as safe as monos if cleating off the mainsheet in winds gusting to 25 knots can have this result. With the exception of course being dinghys, cleating of the main in a mono with winds gusting to 25 would result in a knockdown at worst and more likely just a wet rail. No big deal in either case. Upside down seems like no fun at all. The studies post fastnet suggest that to getmost monos upside down you need breaking waves about as tall as the mono is long.

It is the way of sailing. Things happen. Good sailors, bad sailors, a lifetime of experience, none of us are infallable, and we all take calculated risks. I also happen to believe multis are as safe as monos, and all are as safe as the people who sail them. It is unfortunate that this happened, but not a major disaster. No one died, and the vessel is intact.
Saildude, great pics, thanks for posting them.

[northerncat]

as an ex sailing kiwi(new zealander) i must admit to conderable surprise about alans comments re cats tripping over themselves, i never heard of any (apart from beach cats but you do them for fun, i.e you only sail them when it is over 25 and yoiu try to see how many powerboats you can smoke before you cap it
sean

[schoonerdog]

Is anyone on this list a insurance broker with access to yearly data? It would be interesting to see hard data on how many catamarans vs monos are lost as a percentage of the total each year, how many need to be towed or salvaged as a percentage of the total between mono's and multis, and injury reports in multis vs monos as a percentage of the total.
If you have a raw database that has that information, but not broken down, send it to me and I'd be happy to do the number crunching.

[fhrussell]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

Is anyone on this list a insurance broker with access to yearly data? It would be interesting to see hard data on how many catamarans vs monos are lost as a percentage of the total each year, how many need to be towed or salvaged as a percentage of the total between mono's and multis, and injury reports in multis vs monos as a percentage of the total.
If you have a raw database that has that information, but not broken down, send it to me and I'd be happy to do the number crunching.

This would be interesting! I don't think I have ever seen this information presented plainly. It would certainly put many arguments to rest. (I just hope I don't finbd myself eating crow... )

[henryv]

It may be that this was less a wind issue than a water issue. On smaller bodies of water the waves are often closely spaced. In these conditions you need to adjust your speed so that your bows can ride up the face of the waves rather than digging in. If your leward bow is digging in hard you are risking an upset on the diagonal axis.

I sailed in these conditions recently with winds in the 16 to 18 knot range and wave heights of about 5 feet. When I tried heading upwind under full sail the boat accelerated quickly but as soon as I went much beyond ten knots the trampoline was awash. When I reduced sail and dropped speed to about 9 knots the boat had time to climb the waves and she rode nicely.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by fhrussell

This would be interesting! I don't think I have ever seen this information presented plainly. It would certainly put many arguments to rest. (I just hope I don't finbd myself eating crow... )

If I remember correctly Daschews reported about 4-7% of the multi's cruising the Pacific went missing annually. They had raced multi's earlier in their sailing career and had considered building a large multi to cruise.
They wrote that when conditions were tough a multi would have to be actively sailed 100% of the time and they did not feel that was possible for a long distance cruiser. They felt that when things were ugly you needed to slam the hatch boards home and let the boat fend for itself while getting some rest. Don't know if they still feel this way but they wrote about a bad knockdown on the original Intermezzo when rounding a bluff. That was a defining moment that crystallized their decision to only cruise mono's.

Originally Posted by yotphix

It is hard for me to believe that cats are just as safe as monos if cleating off the mainsheet in winds gusting to 25 knots can have this result. With the exception of course being dinghys, cleating of the main in a mono with winds gusting to 25 would result in a knockdown at worst and more likely just a wet rail. No big deal in either case. Upside down seems like no fun at all. The studies post fastnet suggest that to getmost monos upside down you need breaking waves about as tall as the mono is long.

[schoonerdog]

There are a LOT of contradictory opinions. Friends of mine are the main delivery captains for Moorings, have been delivering boats for 15 years, do it full time, every year, always on the open ocean, most of the time from South Africa to where ever they need the boat, typically for a single leg streching several thousand miles, to New Zealand, Micronesia, Europe, Caribbean, you name it. They have over 250,000 blue water miles and after sailing mono's and multi's they now ONLY do multi's for more reasons then could be listed in a book, all of them related on how it is to travel on a multi in the middle of the ocean and many of them regarding how multis handle storms, because again, that's all they do, they don't anchor, they don't stay in a marinas, they don't do the ICW, they don't do protected sailing on protected waters. They don't even have a house, when they finish one delivery, they are on a plane to the next one. Among delivery captains they are more experienced than practically anyone else, but even that is anecdotal. Nothing beats hard data. I would assume that marine insurance agencies must have something like this.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

There are a LOT of contradictory opinions. Friends of mine are the main delivery captains for Moorings, have been delivering boats for 15 years, do it full time, every year, always on the open ocean, most of the time from South Africa to where ever they need the boat,

Could it be that they only do multis because that's all that's coming out of South Africa. I am not aware that Moorings has any mono hulls that are built in South Africa. The French monos are usually shipped across now, faster, less wear and tear and probably more economical.

[schoonerdog]

They started doing large monohulls (50+ ft) from europe for the first 3 years doing transatlantics and then moved to multis, they had 20+ transatlantic monohull deliveries under their belt before they decided to move exclusively to multi's. They also do private contracts for different parts of the world to fill in down time.

[schoonerdog]

I tried calling a few insurance brokers just to see, Blue Water Insurance, Progressive, etc. It seems like no one carries hard data, they simply look at total boat value, cruising location and often core type. They did say is if it's a balsa core and has been severly damaged that "there's little hope of repairing it" and they often write it off as a total loss, but that's one insurance agent opinion and he was sales and not claims. Amazing that there isn't more objective analysis going into the pricing of policies.