Capsized/Pitchpoled Atlantic?

[fhrussell]

I've considered the popularity of multihulls for the charter industry as a sure indication of the safety of multihulls. I would imagine that if multis were so inherently unsafe, there wouldn't be a charter company that would be insurable!
Perhaps the numbers can be found in the charter industry....?

[Talbot]

I have always disliked daggerboards on a catamaran when cruising or short handed. I reckon it substantially increases the probability of tripping over the board unless you have an ability to immediately release sheets. Whereas a long low aspect ratio keel slides sideways when heeled. I dont understand why most of the really big catamarans supposedly being sold for cruising , are fitted with dagger boards only.

Yes this one that is being discussed was fittted with dagger boards.

[Intentional Drifter]

RE: Lack of data on mono's vs. multi's, I find that really hard to believe. As someone with much more than a passing acquaintance with actuarial risk modeling, I can tell you that it is not that hard to do. It does require a sufficient database, but 100 is sufficient and 200 will result in very stable results. Also, insurance underwriters are definitely not stupid -- they know that a 5% variance one way or another spells the difference between bankruptcy and a nice, steady profitable business. The data collection is also not that hard to do: they collect their own from the people they insure, plus they can get the data from public agencies like the Coast Guard and other federal/state agencies. I imagine there are international maritime agencies that also collect such data. However, the companies may well jealously guard their actuarial formulas. After all, if you can shave off even 1% by considering a different variable, well, that's 1% of free profit. The TransAmerica Tower and the many other insurance company monuments across the world are testament to their success. I do wonder, though, if a company like BoatUS might not be more open to sharing their data?

ID

[schoonerdog]

I think I've found a national agency which is doing it now, but they haven't finished yet. I will post what they send as a seperate thread.

[schoonerdog]

BTW, I'll post it with the following truth. Statistics are valid for general populations or groups, but they don't tell you if YOUR boat is therefore safer than someone elses specific boat.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

I think I've found a national agency which is doing it now, but they haven't finished yet. I will post what they send as a seperate thread.

Thanks Dog, that should be an interesting read.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by northerncat

as an ex sailing kiwi(new zealander) i must admit to conderable surprise about alans comments re cats tripping over themselves, i never heard of any (apart from beach cats but you do them for fun, i.e you only sail them when it is over 25 and yoiu try to see how many powerboats you can smoke before you cap it
sean

I'm just about through the sales process with my boat right now, and I CAN'T WAIT to do this kind of sailing again!

I'm really looking forward to bashing around on a small boat where you don't need winches. Funny how the water is bluer on the other side of the rail.

[44'cruisingcat]

A lot of the reputation that catamarans have for capsising and being unsafe is due to photo's like this. Think about it: if it was a mono and had sunk, would there be any photos?

[Vasco]

44'cruisingcat,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Would a mono have sunk in identical conditions? I don't think cats are unsafe. I'm just a bit surprised that cat owners make such a production of the safety or more properly, seaworthiness issue.

[RandyAbernethy]

A few have pointed out the performance nature of the Atlantic here. I would reemphasize this. The Atlantic has a powerful rig, substantial daggerboards and is entirely epoxy and exotic laminates. This is a really light boat with a lot of lateral resistance and big power in the rig. I'm not surprised when a Volvo broaches in conditions I would feel safe in and I'm not surprised to see this boat go over in conditions I would feel safe in.

Great boat, but not my idea of a cruiser (also kinda ugly, no?)

[cat man do]

Nothing wrong with light powerful cats for cruising Randy, infact plenty would say you're better off. They sail real we'll in light air, and can usually carry more weight.They can usually outrun shity weather and can get further up that creek that may be your "Cyclone Hole"

I would'nt have a sailing cat without d/boards, pointing ability is superior and downhill less drag when raised. In heavy air you don't need them all the way in when beating and the designer should give an indication as to how far in at a certain windspeed.

But at the end of the day some people drive Porches, some drive Landrovers, some can't control a shopping trolley.

Dave

PS: Good looking boat you have there Randy, you cant tell me you would'nt like her 1000kg lighter and another 5ft on the rig, can you ?

[Tropic Cat]

Dagger boards down and inattentiveness are not compatable.

Rick in Florida

[Talbot]

Originally Posted by rickm505

Dagger boards down and inattentiveness are not compatable.

and cruising tends to mean short handed, therefore more likely to not be on deck at the wrong moment. I admit that this can be alleviated by only using the weather daggerboard, but so many times I have seen big cats with short handed crews, using the lee board. - a recipe for a disaster.

[Lodesman]

Rick in Fl,

Sailing and inattentiveness are not compatible.


Kevin

[fhrussell]

With all due respect, RickM and Talbot, I think there is too much being made of the dangers of daggerboards. I have sailed large and small daggerboarded cats my whole life and not once did i ever feel like they were a hindrance. I have sailed a 38' ocean racer, single handed, in some very heavy air many times and never on the verge of catastrophy due to the boards.

Also, with control lines led aft to the cockpit, one does not have to go on deck to adjust the boards, which is common these days. Actually, once a cat gets to about 42 feet, the boards require control lines,... just too heavy; or, conversely, on small cats, they can so light that they need lines to hold them down!

Now that said, I think if i were strictly cruising (with a depthfinder), sure, avoid the boards, go with a fixed LAR keel or built down skeg (ala DART, Beneteau BLUE, or NACRA) and avoid the concern and gain all that interior space.
Again, I totally respect you guys..not to argue, just my opinion.