Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

When someone does not agree with something that is cleared stated it is expected to explain why. lalala is a very weak explanation and not a credible one

Sorry, it means your explanation carries no merit and honestly is slightly delusional.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

Sorry, it means your explanation carries no merit and honestly is slightly delusional.

What I mean is that what I said was clear. If you don't agree it is expected of you to sat why, not saying I am delusional. That only means you don't have any valid arguments and that reality somehow pisses you.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

What I mean is that what I said was clear. If you don't agree it is expected of you to sat why, not saying I am delusional. That only means you don't have any valid arguments and that reality somehow pisses you.

To say that a modern monohull will ALWAYS recover from a capsize caused by wind is in my opinion wrong. There are no absolutes.

[Factor]

Anyone that talks about a mono recovering from catastrophic knock down (a force of of wind/wave big enough to capsize a well found multi) as if it is a shake of the head and on we go has clearly never been in such a situation, I have and it aint pretty - best you can hope for is that you still have everything and that lines didnt get wrapped round stuff and the lockers didn't spew all their content over the inside of the boat.

[Mirage Gecko]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes it is just right: too much wind on a modern offshore monohull, gusting or not (provided that there are no breaking waves involved) is never a dangerous situation. Frightening can be, for an inexperienced sailor.

But you surely know that, wind alone cannot capsize a modern monohull. A gust can knock him down but it will raise up after it.

Come on Polux there was no mention of capsize in what I quoted "is never a dangerous situation "you on .

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

To say that a modern monohull will ALWAYS recover from a capsize caused by wind is in my opinion wrong. There are no absolutes.

I did not said a modern monohull but a RCD class A monohull that have now an AVS that is not less than about 110º . Most mass production boats have now an AVS that averages 120º. When the boat is knocked out by wind it will not pass 90º of heel. After that the sail is not catching any wind and it is the hull that is deflecting the wind. If the AVS is superior to 110º and all the downflooding allowed angles are superior to 90º how do cannot the boat not recover from a capsize?

This is a stability curve of an Oceanis 411, a boat with more than a decade, now they tend to have a slightly better AVS:

You can see that at 90º the boat is making as much force to right itself up (RM) up as about the RM that the boat is making when sailing with 20º of heel, that is about the normal heel angle for that boat: that means, a huge force.

I have been on that situation with a 2002 Bavaria 36, an average boat and as soon as the brutal wind diminished the boat recovered immediately. I don't know of any RCD class A boat that had capsized after a knock out provoked only by wind, on a sea without significant waves, but maybe you know. Maybe you like to share those facts with us?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

Anyone that talks about a mono recovering from catastrophic knock down (a force of of wind/wave big enough to capsize a well found multi) as if it is a shake of the head and on we go has clearly never been in such a situation, I have and it aint pretty - best you can hope for is that you still have everything and that lines didnt get wrapped round stuff and the lockers didn't spew all their content over the inside of the boat.

Yes I have. A 90º knock down by wind is no big deal and I can assure that no lockers or any significant stuff went out of place. From the beginning I am not talking about a knock down by waves that can be more violent on the motion, only by wind. I had other almost high angle knock downs provoked by excessive sailing enthusiasm, or optimism. Not a a problem either.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko

Come on Polux there was no mention of capsize in what I quoted "is never a dangerous situation "you on .

You have a point here but I was assuming that on conditions that can happen one is on the cockpit and using a harness. I was referring dangerous regarding the boat safety.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

You should look back on the thread. I had posted some cases about condo cats being capsized only by big gusts on seas without considerable waves. I have heard of more. Not frequent but it had happened and that means it can happen.

Seriously, so what? Mono's have sunk in marina berths in mirror calm conditions. Do we go on and on and on about this?

At least it takes SOMETHING to capsize a cat. And with most cruising cats it takes pretty extreme and unlikely situations - 60+ knots suddenly arriving out of the blue. Or poor seamanship.

You don't like our boats, you think they're unseaworthy, slow, uncomfortable etc etc etc etc etc... we get that OK? Enough already.


This capsize happened more than 4 years ago!

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes it is just right: too much wind on a modern offshore monohull, gusting or not (provided that there are no breaking waves involved) is never a dangerous situation. Frightening can be, for an inexperienced sailor.

But you surely know that, wind alone cannot capsize a modern monohull. A gust can knock him down but it will raise up after it.

I see nothing mentioning an RCD class A monohull in your post.

[Factor]

I said

Anyone that talks about a mono recovering from catastrophic knock down (a force of of wind/wave big enough to capsize a well found multi) as if it is a shake of the head and on we go has clearly never been in such a situation, I have and it aint pretty - best you can hope for is that you still have everything and that lines didnt get wrapped round stuff and the lockers didn't spew all their content over the inside of the boat.

note the bit in bold

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes I have. A 90º knock down by wind is no big deal and I can assure that no lockers or any significant stuff went out of place. From the beginning I am not talking about a knock down by waves that can be more violent on the motion, only by wind. I had other almost high angle knock downs provoked by excessive sailing enthusiasm, or optimism. Not a a problem either.

I f you got knocked over and thats all, there is no way in tis or any other universe that that was sufficient force to capsize a decent multi. If there was sufficient force to capsize a decent multi, you were - at best - doing a 360 and maybe a pitchpole as well.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Seriously, so what? Mono's have sunk in marina berths in mirror calm conditions. Do we go on and on and on about this?

At least it takes SOMETHING to capsize a cat. And with most cruising cats it takes pretty extreme and unlikely situations - 60+ knots suddenly arriving out of the blue. Or poor seamanship.

You don't like our boats, you think they're unseaworthy, slow, uncomfortable etc etc etc etc etc... we get that OK? Enough already.


This capsize happened more than 4 years ago!

Who said I don't like multihulls? Does that mean a reality check is forbidden if like multihulls?

All this story started with someone saying that offshore cruising cats could not be capsized by wind alone. I said that he was wrong about that and posted some cases where that happened, saying always that it was a rare event.

Modern offshore cruising monohulls can't be capsized by wind alone but in extreme sea conditions, both boats without sails a similar sized multihull is harder to be capsized by breaking waves.

A modern offshore mono hull will be able to re right itself in a short time on the sea and wave conditions that lead to the capsize while a multihull will stay capsized.

A damaged multihull has normally superior buoyancy characteristics regarding monohulls. It is known that some had sunk and that some monohulls are unthinkable but multihulls generally are harder to sunk than a monohull due to the ballast that these carry.

Regarding stability and sailing in extreme conditions bothe types of boats have advantages and disadvantages.

I never said that multihulls were slow, motion comfort on a sailing boat does not say much to me but regarding that it seems obvious that both types have advantages and disadvantages that will suit more some. It is well known that some prefer the motion of monohulls, other the motion of multihulls and the advantage of sailing with little heel.

If you go to my blog you will see that I post regularly about multihulls. Contrary to you I try to have an informed opinion about all types of sailingboats and all this discussion about a particular stability charachteristic were the monohull have advantage : being capsized by a big gust of wind without wave intervention went on and on just because some did refuse to acknowledge reality.

Regarding those 60K of gusting wind needed to capsize a cat, that has to do with the amount of sail carried on the occasion and with the stability of the cat that has much to do with size and weight, it can be considerably less than that, but I had said repeatedly that reality shoes that only happens in very rare occasions.

The subject is finished now?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

...

I f you got knocked over and thats all, there is no way in tis or any other universe that that was sufficient force to capsize a decent multi. If there was sufficient force to capsize a decent multi, you were - at best - doing a 360 and maybe a pitchpole as well.

A 360º roll only with wind force, or a pitchpole, is something that does not happen on a modern offshore monohull. remember that they have tons of ballast pulling then down.

I explained already why that is not possible but if you insist just try find some documented case where that had happened. I have found easily two documented cases where cats where capsized by wind alone, if the same had happened with offshore monohulls you will have no trouble in finding some documented cases regarding that, since there are out there for each multihull douzens of monohulls. Off course you will not find any because it is not possible.

Regarding the situations of that knock down how can you pretend to know that the force was not enough to capsize a decent cruising multihull? I was caught by a micro burst or some rare wind situation and even a third reefed main (lose) was torn out of the mast. The sail was ripped off from the Aluminium top of a 3 year old offshore sail. The sailmaker said that he had never saw a thing like that and estimated the wind force needed to be over 200km/h. Do you know many multihulls that with some sail up could resist to that? I know of one condo cat that was capsized at anchor with not very different wind intensities without any sail up.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

I see nothing mentioning an RCD class A monohull in your post.

"too much wind on a modern offshore monohull...,"

A modern offshore monohull is necessarily a RCD class A certified boat. Some have the opinion that some that are certified as Class A monohulls are not offshore boats but that is another story and anyway just reinforces what i am saying.

[valhalla360]

Polux: It is very hard to take you seriously when you claim that any event that would dip the top of the mast underwater is just shook off and no big deal.

We aren't talking about a sunfish here. If you are extremely lucky, there are only be some bruises and a mess to clean up. Odds are there will be a variety of damage (both to the rigging and to internal components of the boat) and some moderate injuries. There is a real potential for demasting and downflooding due to open hatches or other damage that can take the boat to the bottom.