Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by gjorgensen

Wow, lots of wrong info about J Boats all around. To see what's built where simply go to ... The E series are currently being built only in France because of the small demand for racer/cruisers in the US. ...

Yes, that was precisely what I said, that the current production of performance cruisers from Jboats is made only in France. Most are sold in Europe some are exported to the US. and yes I said also that is because Americans are not interested in performance cruisers and Europeans are.

That is one of the differences between the two markets, Europeans prefer more sportive boats and that was what I was saying from the beginning.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

It's a funny thing... in the pictures that you have posted of latter day motor sailors, the ones that show the cockpits show crew dressed in foulies driving the boat with no protection, and in fairly decent weather. Most of them do not appear to have very useful inside helms... you know, the kind from which you can actually see around the boat whilst steering. This is a pretty useful feature if you want to operate the boat in cold, rainy and windy conditions, and maintain an adequate watch. Now, don't get me wrong, those are very nice boats, ones which I suspect I would like very much, but they don't fill the same niche that the motor sailors like the Fisher and the Nauticat you posted do. And (now pay attention) my point was that I reckon that there is indeed a cultural difference in boat preferences between your part of Europe and Tasmania, and that was the subject addressed by this thread.

Another thing: all those nice boats you show are, by most standards, very expensive vessels, and are new enough designs that second hand examples are rare. Tasmania is not a rich area; most sailors down here are restricted to much less expensive craft. In fact, there are very few new yachts sold here at all. So, sailors here can't avail themselves of the beauties that you promote... another cultural difference, I think. And FWIW, one of the types often seen here are normal sailboats that have added pilot houses to their deck structures. Pretty? No way. But, they sail nearly as well as in their original sailboat format, despite now being considered motorsailors by many of the locals. May not meet your definitions which seem to use the tautological argument that if it can sail well, it is not a motorsailor.

Anyhow, I'm growing tired of this discussion and so will close with the observation that of all the boats you posted, I'm personally familiar with only the Allures. It is a very nice boat, but the owners of the one I know do not feel that the inside steering station is usable. The owners of the only two Fishers that I know steer from inside all the time, for there is no useful exterior helm position. They are totally different sorts of boats, and do not address the same issues in their design.

Jim

All that is not about a cultural difference since we are not talking about the boats on the used market (old boats) but about cultural preferences regarding new boats on the market and there are a considerable number with money for them otherwise there would not be a considerable new market.

Regarding the ones that don't have money to buy new boats we cannot talk about cultural preferences because they are limited to low budgets and to what they can find locally for that budget. When someone have money for buying what he wants the choice is not limited by external factors.

Yes you are right regarding the Allures. It has some forward view but not comparable with all the other boats I posted.

Nobody are using anymore inside secondary steering wheels. They imply complicated hydraulics with more risk regarding problems. Of course it is possible to have only one wheel inside but that is not what most sailors want.

Sailors, the ones that buy those boats, want a steering station inside and another one, a precise one, outside to enjoy sailing. The one inside is a joystick. They work very well even if they don't give the feeling of a wheel and are used for instance on modern tugs.

There are practically no motor sailors on the new market because very few want them. Their sales are irrelevant contrary to the boats I posted.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Polux

So it seems you belong to an elite since you own a cruising sailboat and there are much more cruising sailboats in Europe than on the US.

That data is irrelevant in what regards what we are discussing: Cruising sailboats. I believe I have somewhere more relevant data...but not today.

I'll look forward to this relevant data that shows the "... much more cruising sailboats in Europe than the US." This would be unexpected from what I've observed and the data I've seen and shared.

As a retired public school teacher I do represent a common characteristic of those with moderate incomes owning a cruising sailboat in the US,- 'far from elite!

As I said before, you may be right, but I've yet to see any real numerical data to support your ideas.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I'll look forward to this relevant data that shows the "... much more cruising sailboats in Europe than the US." This would be unexpected from what I've observed and the data I've seen and shared.

As a retired public school teacher I do represent a common characteristic of those with moderate incomes owning a cruising sailboat in the US,- 'far from elite!

As I said before, you may be right, but I've yet to see any real numerical data to support your ideas.

I was just kidding with you regarding this statement of yours:

"however, this seems to suggest that the buyers of new boats in Europe and the US likely differ more in the size of their wallets than their tastes. Recreational boating appears to be a more elite activity in Europe compared to sailors in the US with moderate incomes and this would be a very large factor in determining the market. "

Obviously we are talking not about boats but about cruising sailboats and those are hugely more expensive than the average ones those statistics you mentioned talks about (all boats).

In fact being owner of a cruising boat, assuming that it is in good condition and maintained in good condition is always an expensive affair. You talk about your moderate income but a teacher has a middle class income, not big but better than most.

Regarding those statistics you posted, to put things in perspective, from the 15.8 millions of boats in the water in US (2014) only 1.6 millions are sailboats and most of this are small open boats, not cruising boats.
http://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets/...49/Preview.pdf

Difficult to find statistics regarding the number of sailing cruising boats but if we took the percentage refereed on this study regarding the percentage of boats bigger than 26ft (7%) and considered that a cruising boat is at least of that size, considering 2014 numbers than the estimated total number of sailing cruising boats on the US will be of 112 000, well, not quite because there are many recreational sailboats with 26ft and more that are day sailers.
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/website...f/14boatus.pdf
Regarding yachts including motor yachts the global market is like this:


And that explains why there are much more builders of yachts in Europe than on the states and even if this regards motor yachts and sailing yachts, the difference regarding sailing cruising boats should not diverge much.

In fact percentages of motor yachts versus sailing yachts in US and on Europe shows that sailing yacht are a much bigger proportion regarding motorboats in Europe.

So what all this seems to show is that even if on the US seems to have a bigger percentage of boats for citizens the percentage of cruising boats and other yachts is much bigger in Europe.

For having bigger boats it is necessary a bigger budget but taking from that that boating in EU "is more of an elite activity" makes no sense unless we consider that have cruising boats belong to an elite because it is about that we are talking about, the ones that own yachts (Yacht means only a pleasure boat of some dimension).

I would say that the conclusion to take is that European middle class, businessmen and rich guys are much more into cruising and yachting than their American counterpart that prefers to spend their money in different hobbies and activities.

[Polux]

On the above post the total number of sailboats, including all types was of about 10% of the total. Here they only consider 2% of the total of all boats are sailboats what will bring down the number of sailboat cruisers around, since the vast majority of sailboats are small open boats and dinghies.

[s/v Jedi]

I think the difference is that in the US many of the richer people rather buy a motoryacht or fishingboat than a sailboat.

[Kenomac]

And then there's this guy....

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Polux

On the above post the total number of sailboats, including all types was of about 10% of the total. Here they only consider 2% of the total of all boats are sailboats what will bring down the number of sailboat cruisers around, since the vast majority of sailboats are small open boats and dinghies.

Similar statistics would probably be much more difficult to obtain in Europe as in at least some countries within the EU, there is no mandatory registration, unlike in the US.

In Sweden there is no registration requirement for private boats and when you want to sail outside of Swedish waters, if your vessel is less than 12m, you still don't register it, you just get a cruising certificate from the Swedish Cruising Club. I'm sure Sweden is not alone...

BTW The price of fuel in the EU is dramatically more than in the US and for this reason alone Europeans will be more motivated to sail than those across the pond.

[Polux]

Yes, it is difficult to find information about EU...unless you pay some thousands of euros, that would be fully justified by professionals but not by me.

Anyway I could access to Germany ICOMIA file and that provides a good insight:


We can see that regarding the boat park contrary to what happens on US sailboats are a much bigger percentage: 39% compared with 2%

We can see also that among those sailboats bigger boats, over 25ft are 79% of the total while on US boats bigger than 26ft are only 7% of the total.

So a completely different market one where cruising boats are in a much bigger proportionality regarding the overall number of sailboats than in US and that means also proportionally a much bigger number of cruisers.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I think the difference is that in the US many of the richer people rather buy a motoryacht or fishingboat than a sailboat.

Yes you are right about that but also there is a much bigger number of "sailors" buying motor yachts (including rich people) in Europe as you can see on that graphic regarding global yacht market.

Regarding Germany, that should not be far from the European average (regarding that), you can see that among boats between 12.1 and 24m there are about 2,5 motor yachts for each sailing yacht.

But regarding sailboats and motorboats between 7.6m and 12.0m they are almost 50 50.

Even so not comparable to the proportionality on the US where there are proportionally much more motoryachts.

I am not looking for it again but I remember to have looked at a graphic that showed that on the US the number of new pleasure boats for year versus the number of boats that are disposed (taken out of registration) and it showed a very clear decrease on the overall number of boats.

The ones that are growing fast regarding Yachting are China and Russia.

[s/v Jedi]

The motor yachts you talk about in Europe is one thing; the thousands of big game fishing boats in the US is something else. Whole marinas are filled with them and none of that in Europe.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The motor yachts you talk about in Europe is one thing; the thousands of big game fishing boats in the US is something else. Whole marinas are filled with them and none of that in Europe.

Yes but those big game fishing boats on the US are not cruising boats while the big motor yachts here are.

There are also a lot of pleasure fishing boats in Europe and many times they fill marinas too, but rarely are bigger than 14m.

Not full with big game fishing boats but with small game fishing boats Just a difference in size regarding motor boats for that. Here they have between 6 m and 12 m but they are the majority in many marinas, on the ones nearby for instance.

But we are talking about cruising boats not about fishing boats.

[s/v Jedi]

No we were talking about richer people spending money on boats for pleasure use. You can't compare the fishing boats in the EU with the multi-million toys in the US, no matter how you squirm

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No we were talking about richer people spending money on boats for pleasure use. You can't compare the fishing boats in the EU with the multi-million toys in the US, no matter how you squirm

Sorry about that, I thought this was a cruising forum

Fishing boats are fishing boats, they are used for fishing, costing them $50 000 or 3 millions. Cruising boats are cruising boats costing them $50 000 or 3 millions, they are used for cruising.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sorry about that, I thought this was a cruising forum



Fishing boats are fishing boats, they are used for fishing, costing them $50 000 or 3 millions. Cruising boats are cruising boats costing them $50 000 or 3 millions, they are used for cruising.

So you just take statistics and skew them in your favor by excluding these boat? Sure you can do that, you can even sing while doing it

p.s. many of the owners of those boats consider themselves cruising as they go from tournament to tournament, often thousands of miles apart. Or at least their crews do that and they fly and meet heheh.