Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I wouldn't be so quick to call rubbish but I also don't agree with all of Polux's views. Generally speaking Americans are a conservative nation and that reflects in their buying choices. There is a reason the Ford F 150 is the biggest selling half ton in the world and there is also a reason companies like Catalina could produce the same boat for so many years. You don't see Americans taking showers off their sterns but Europeans think nothing of nudity. So when I reflect I think Americans are probably one of the most conservative Western nations in the world. All that said they are also leaders in usable inventions, little stuff like the light bulb, the aircraft and the internet. They are also business leaders to the extreme and individually have high net worth. They also have the largest economy in the world although China is nipping at the door, so ya I think Americans are conservative.

Hum, regarding boats that is about what I think. The fact that sailing boat design is dominated by European Brands using designers from all world is not an opinion, simply a fact backed by numbers. Hard to understand in what we disagree regarding a global view.

[TeddyDiver]

We have had long discussions about the definition of motorsailer in boatdesign.net and some NA's have published about the subject too. Somekind of consensus seems to be that a motorsailor is more than a 50%/50%(or 30/60) sail/motorboar. Dave Gerr suggests perfect motorsailor being 100/100 sailing or motoring and most boat designers I know of tend to agree with him.

BR Teddy

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Sandero

With all due respect... rubbish...

There are some racy looking designs such as the very popular J boats.

Yes but the J cruisingyachts are made in Europe, not in the US (they have to be imported) and that's because they are sold almost all to Europeans and very few to Americans.

Originally Posted by Sandero

Manual transmissions are more an inconvenience than a control issue. Anyone who drives "normally" has come to accept this. Even the automatic have as many as 7 gears and the ability to control the shifting by the driver.

I am an American and I have a 1985 Dutch boat and have never owned an American car... I've had 6 Audis, an Acura, 4 BMWs, a Honda, a VW and an old TR4 when I was in college. I don't understand the American obsession with pick ups and SUVs... but all the car makers are making SUVs.
..

So it seems you are an American with European tastes, or at least partially because you seem not to understand that most Europeans do not see a manual transmission as an inconvenience but they see an automatic one as a nuisance in what regards driving pleasure.

Only very expensive cars offer a good alternative manual/automatic gearbox, one where the manual one is not handicapped by the automatic system and is not disagreeable to use.

I drove sometime ago a recent Ferrari with gearbox changes on the wheel and an optional automatic system and yes, that was very agreeable, I mean the manual gearbox. I did not even thought about trying the automatic one but my daughter did: boring was the word that she use to describe it. So why should I pay more for something I don't want and I will not use?

Regarding control, maybe Americans have more fast lanes than Europeans and less twisting roads. On a fast lane I agree with you but there you almost don't change gear, on a twisting road the point where you change gearbox, or the gear you have on, is important regarding the way the car will take the curve or regarding the response you want from the engine on the turn.

Yes, more sportive driving, but that is what I was talking about and that seems like a natural tendency on Europeans regarding cars and sailboats.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

We have had long discussions about the definition of motorsailer in boatdesign.net and some NA's have published about the subject too. Somekind of consensus seems to be that a motorsailor is more than a 50%/50%(or 30/60) sail/motorboar. Dave Gerr suggests perfect motorsailor being 100/100 sailing or motoring and most boat designers I know of tend to agree with him.

BR Teddy

Yes 30% sailing and 60% motoring makes some sense even if for that it had to be a Motorsailor with very good sailing aptitude. Most sail very badly upwind and are completely useless in what regards sailing in anything less than 15k (sailing alone)...and that is most of the time. Even on those conditions their sailing performance is much poor than the one of a sailboat.

They are designed to motorsail and that is what they are good at, saving some fuel with the additional use of sails.

Regarding 100/100 it makes not any sense. A boat is maximized as a sailboat or maximized as a motor boat. Many things that make one good make the other bad so you have to take compromises towards a side or the other. As that consensus as shown they compromise more sailing than motoring ability.

When they compromise more motoring than sailing they are not motorsailors anymore.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes but the J cruisingyachts are made in Europe, not in the US (they have to be imported) and that's because they are sold almost all to Europeans and very few to Americans..

You are a joker They are built in the US and some in Japan I think... not in the EU. The main builder is TPI in Newport Rhode Island, who also built our Sundeer 64. They build using the Scrimp process if you know what that means.

So explain how they not build them in the US?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes 30% sailing and 60% motoring makes some sense even if for that it had to be a Motorsailor with very good sailing aptitude. Most sail very badly upwind and are completely useless in what regards sailing in anything less than 15k (sailing alone)...and that is most of the time. Even on those conditions their sailing performance is much poor than the one of a sailboat.

They are designed to motorsail and that is what they are good at, saving some fuel with the additional use of sails.

Regarding 100/100 it makes not any sense. A boat is maximized as a sailboat or maximized as a motor boat. Many things that make one good make the other bad so you have to take compromises towards a side or the other. As that consensus as shown they compromise more sailing than motoring ability.

When they compromise more motoring than sailing they are not motorsailors anymore.

It's as much sense as a sailboat being a racer/cruiser or performance cruiser. Compromise is the other name of naval architecture

BR Teddy

[Hudson Force]

After looking at some statistics from sites such as statistica.com and ec.europa.eu/eurostat it seems that the boating populations in Europe and the USA do not represent the same proportion of these regions. Boating seems to be an activity that is common among a much higher proportion of the population in the US than in Europe. This can also be interpreted that boating is an activity of wealthier people in Europe, but more among those with an average income in the US.

USA population 2013 ------------------ 315 million
European Union Pop. 2013 ------------ 480 million

USA recreational boat owners 2013 -- 87 million
EU recreational boat owners 2011 --- 36 million

USA registered boats 2014 ----------- 17.7 million
Recreational boats owned in Europe 2004 ---6 million

I was unable to find data with all the identical year or data that was exclusively sailboats; however, this seems to suggest that the buyers of new boats in Europe and the US likely differ more in the size of their wallets than their tastes. Recreational boating appears to be a more elite activity in Europe compared to sailors in the US with moderate incomes and this would be a very large factor in determining the market.

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

After looking at some statistics from sites such as statistica.com and ec.europa.eu/eurostat it seems that the boating populations in Europe and the USA do not represent the same proportion of these regions. Boating seems to be an activity that is common among a much higher proportion of the population in the US than in Europe. This can also be interpreted that boating is an activity of wealthier people in Europe, but more among those with an average income in the US.

USA population 2013 ------------------ 315 million
European Union Pop. 2013 ------------ 480 million

USA recreational boat owners 2013 -- 87 million
EU recreational boat owners 2011 --- 36 million

USA registered boats 2014 ----------- 17.7 million
Recreational boats owned in Europe 2004 ---6 million

I was unable to find data with all the identical year or data that was exclusively sailboats; however, this seems to suggest that the buyers of new boats in Europe and the US likely differ more in the size of their wallets than their tastes. Recreational boating appears to be a more elite activity in Europe compared to sailors in the US with moderate incomes and this would be a very large factor in determining the market.

Look at a typical US harbor in FL or NE and compare it with something in the UK or France... completely different mix of boat types I imagine. There are many marinas without a sailboat in the USA!

[barnakiel]

Guys pls do not mix J yachts (J-Class yachts) with J/Boats.

And yes some J/Boats used to be built in France, EU. I do not know if they are still there.

X-Yachts are somewhat similar - a Danish, EU boatyard.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You are a joker They are built in the US and some in Japan I think... not in the EU. The main builder is TPI in Newport Rhode Island, who also built our Sundeer 64. They build using the Scrimp process if you know what that means.

So explain how they not build them in the US?

Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes but the J cruisingyachts are made in Europe, not in the US (they have to be imported) and that's because they are sold almost all to Europeans and very few to Americans..

It seems the joker are you I am surprised with your ignorance regarding this, being you European. From the site of the ones that built the Cruising Jboats, the J122 and the new J112 (jcomposites):

"The J 122 has been designed and built only in Europe but it's navigating worldwide from France to United States going through Turkey and even Papua New Guinea."
J122E

Statement by the CEO of Jcomposites about the new J112 (translated):
"With the success of J / 122E and J / 97E, it was logical for J Composites to launch an intermediate sailing boat between these two. We are announcing the arrival next of J112E. ... the yacht will be built only by J Composites . This will be a faithful boat to J principles while being modern and stylish " said Didier Le Moal, CEO of J Composites . "

Given the success of the J/122E and the J/97E, it was a logical progression for J Composites to launch a yacht midway between these two boats. As such, we're exhibiting the J/112E at the Nautic in Paris, then in London and Düsseldorf as a replacement for the famous J/109. ...The first craft has been delivered to J Boats in the United States and proved to be a hit from her very first outing. Indeed, beyond the orders made according to pre-registered plans, just one sea trial was enough to convince 2 new clients. Europe has matched up to this, even before its official presentation, as we can also boast several orders. With the total already in excess of 10, we envisage great success during the upcoming boat shows
http://www.jcomposites.eu/en/news/29...boat-show.html

As you can see the performance cruising line of Jboats is made exclusively by Jcomposites in France and regarding sales they seem to be really happy selling two J112E on the US while the sell 8 in Europe.

About Jcomposites (French Shipyard):
Since 1994, J Composites site has been adapting and building the Johnstone plans for the European market creating yachts intended for both cruising and racing navigation.
http://www.jcomposites.eu/en/j-boats/j-composites/

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Guys pls do not mix J yachts (J-Class yachts) with J/Boats.

And yes some J/Boats used to be built in France, EU. I do not know if they are still there.
...b.

My mistake, I was referring to Jboats performance cruisers and employed the word Jyachts and you are right it is not the same thing.

The performance cruising line is not only built in France but also exclusively built in France and exported to the US. The number of boats that go to US are few since the demand for performance cruisers in Europe is much bigger.

There are other Jboats built in Europe by J composites but I am not sure if they are all built on the US too. Some numbers regarding Jcomposite production (it is called J Europe now but everybody continues to call them J compsoites) since it started to make J boats (the last two years production are not here-2014 data):

J80- 1600, J70 -350, j109 - 350, J111 - 60, j105 - 150, j122 - 100, j 92s- 100 - total of built boats - 2720

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

After looking at some statistics from sites such as statistica.com and ec.europa.eu/eurostat it seems that the boating populations in Europe and the USA do not represent the same proportion of these regions. Boating seems to be an activity that is common among a much higher proportion of the population in the US than in Europe. This can also be interpreted that boating is an activity of wealthier people in Europe, but more among those with an average income in the US.

USA population 2013 ------------------ 315 million
European Union Pop. 2013 ------------ 480 million

USA recreational boat owners 2013 -- 87 million
EU recreational boat owners 2011 --- 36 million

USA registered boats 2014 ----------- 17.7 million
Recreational boats owned in Europe 2004 ---6 million

I was unable to find data with all the identical year or data that was exclusively sailboats; however, this seems to suggest that the buyers of new boats in Europe and the US likely differ more in the size of their wallets than their tastes. Recreational boating appears to be a more elite activity in Europe compared to sailors in the US with moderate incomes and this would be a very large factor in determining the market.

So it seems you belong to an elite since you own a cruising sailboat and there are much more cruising sailboats in Europe than on the US.

That data is irrelevant in what regards what we are discussing: Cruising sailboats. I believe I have somewhere more relevant data...but not today.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Polux

Jim I know enough about boat design to know about the different boat options and that is not directly related with what I do for a cruising.

A motors sailor is something that has almost disappeared in what concerns European contemporary boat design options even in what regards voyage sailboats pointed to sailing in difficult weather conditions.



A motor sailor is basically a motor boat with auxiliary sails, a boat that will motor most of the time. They don't have the stability of sailboat since they don't need it for sailing and that is the main reason a sailboat has different stability characteristics than a motor boat. That give to the sailboat a better final stability characteristics and a superior seaworthiness.

What you have on the market (designed recently) for the hard conditions you describe (out of season) are sailboats (with sailboat stability characteristics) that sail well, have the possibility to be sailed from the interior and have also a relatively powerful engine, that is a characteristic they share with many other types of sailboats, but they are not certainly motorboats with an auxiliary sails neither their builders or sailors would call them motorsailors.

Old motor sailors like the old Nauticat or the Fisher from Northshore (pictures above) are designs from the past. What you have now for the conditions you describe are sailboats like these:

There are much more but I guess it is enough to give you an idea. There are also smaller ones, even if in smaller number because people that want to live in a boat and sailed all year don't want small boats so the small ones are hard to sell. One of the more interesting among those is the Soler 35. Look in my blog (use the search engine). A good price and a very interesting boat but I doubt there is a market for it.

The only true modern motorsailor I know off is the Nordhvan 56, an American design:

But the design seems not to have find a market, not interesting to motorboaters, the traditional Nordhavn clientele, neither to sailboat sailors.

It's a funny thing... in the pictures that you have posted of latter day motor sailors, the ones that show the cockpits show crew dressed in foulies driving the boat with no protection, and in fairly decent weather. Most of them do not appear to have very useful inside helms... you know, the kind from which you can actually see around the boat whilst steering. This is a pretty useful feature if you want to operate the boat in cold, rainy and windy conditions, and maintain an adequate watch. Now, don't get me wrong, those are very nice boats, ones which I suspect I would like very much, but they don't fill the same niche that the motor sailors like the Fisher and the Nauticat you posted do. And (now pay attention) my point was that I reckon that there is indeed a cultural difference in boat preferences between your part of Europe and Tasmania, and that was the subject addressed by this thread.

Another thing: all those nice boats you show are, by most standards, very expensive vessels, and are new enough designs that second hand examples are rare. Tasmania is not a rich area; most sailors down here are restricted to much less expensive craft. In fact, there are very few new yachts sold here at all. So, sailors here can't avail themselves of the beauties that you promote... another cultural difference, I think. And FWIW, one of the types often seen here are normal sailboats that have added pilot houses to their deck structures. Pretty? No way. But, they sail nearly as well as in their original sailboat format, despite now being considered motorsailors by many of the locals. May not meet your definitions which seem to use the tautological argument that if it can sail well, it is not a motorsailor.

Anyhow, I'm growing tired of this discussion and so will close with the observation that of all the boats you posted, I'm personally familiar with only the Allures. It is a very nice boat, but the owners of the one I know do not feel that the inside steering station is usable. The owners of the only two Fishers that I know steer from inside all the time, for there is no useful exterior helm position. They are totally different sorts of boats, and do not address the same issues in their design.

Jim

[gjorgensen]

Wow, lots of wrong info about J Boats all around. To see what's built where simply go to J/Boats Sailboat Builders. They list what models are where. They're all designed by the J boats team in the US. J Boats abandoned TPI about 9 years ago for unstated reasons, although I think TPI was changing business models and I would guess the J80 and J120 keel failure debacles contributed.

The bulk of the modern racing boats are being built in the US at CCF and Waterline, although they're also built in France. The older race boats are built at a variety of locations worldwide. The E series are currently being built only in France because of the small demand for racer/cruisers in the US. I know former owners of several of the French built boats (e.g. J112) and the quality on them was spotty at best and generally inferior to TPI in the heyday. I would assume they've gotten better since. All of the older, more pure cruising J's like the J46, J160, and J65 were built in the US.

[barnakiel]

Interestingly they were built here but the only one I have seen here was owned by a Canadian.

So I guess very many were exported. There is not a single one in our marina e.g. (4k boats here).

b.