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Old 13-03-2016, 17:19   #406
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Very little can be said from ARC statistics.

One thing is pretty likely - that most boats of whatever design will sail at around 1 sqrt of their LWL of pure A to B speed. No obvious differences between the more classic hulls/rigs and the more recent ones.

Outside the ARC, it is pretty common to hear a classic hull/rig owner overstate their ability. This is about as common as hearing a more recent hull/rig owner underestimating the 'classic' guys' capacity.

Except for boats sailed by racers, you are bound by your LWL, far more than by any other single factor.

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Old 13-03-2016, 18:34   #407
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Very little can be said from ARC statistics.

One thing is pretty likely - that most boats of whatever design will sail at around 1 sqrt of their LWL of pure A to B speed. No obvious differences between the more classic hulls/rigs and the more recent ones.
......
Except for boats sailed by racers, you are bound by your LWL, far more than by any other single factor.
b.
Meaning that racers are the ones that like to sail fast

Modern cruisers, at least most of them are what is called semi displacement boats meaning that contrary to heavy boats they can sail downwind with the trade wind typically conditions a couple of knots above hull speed.

Displacement boats (heavy cruisers) can't and that makes a huge difference on an Atlantic crossing and I am not even talking about fast performance cruisers. But of course if you don't mind to arrive one, two or three days later that has not much importance.

Fact is that I think that, besides being a safety advantage (less days at sea can be an advantage regarding safety) is not the most important but the fun to sail a faster sailboat. For some that does not mean nothing, for others it is very important. All is relative, depending what is important for a given sailor.

Why you have to be a racer to go at this speed downwind? You don't even need a Spinnaker. It seems tome that they are going way over hull speed

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Old 13-03-2016, 18:59   #408
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pirate Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Very nice.. in the right conditions.. F9 (?) off the land so a slight chop.. the other.. no real sea..
I've had 14kts running before under bare poles in an '83 Hunter Cherubini 37.. scary as hell.. what are you trying to prove.??
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Old 13-03-2016, 19:11   #409
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Very nice.. in the right conditions.. F9 (?) off the land so a slight chop.. the other.. no real sea..
I've had 14kts running before under bare poles in an '83 Hunter Cherubini 37.. scary as hell.. what are you trying to prove.??
That works also on the Horn

Or at the middle of the Atlantic:

Yes I agree, it is not scary on these boats going faster than hull speed and not needed a storm.
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Old 13-03-2016, 22:26   #410
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
All the French people I met out there sailing owned their boats. None was leased.

In the EU individuals cannot deduct lease costs, only companies can do this.

In France "Leasing Option Achat" or LOA is quite common. Looking at adds for second hand boats in France I see quite often that taking over this leasing agreement is often offered as part of the deal. Especially for new boats it's the norm, as it is indeed financially advantageous.
The reason is that in many countries you can take advantage of a lower Vat rate, which more than offsets the financing costs.


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Old 14-03-2016, 09:45   #411
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Sailor Doug View Post
Pollux your facts are poor, you need to research who designs American boats...
I thought that I knew. I am talking about contemporary models from main brands like Catalina, Hunter or Island Packet. I thought that they were designed on the house by the resident NA that does not have any other significant yacht design curriculum except those designs and that by no means can be considered major yacht designers or main Yacht cabinets (and therefore are 2th rate).

Perhaps you can tell me what are you talking about, what boats and what are the major American NA that design those boats?

By no means I wanted to say that there are not major cabinet designs and Major NA on the US (I mean contemporary ones) but to my knowledge they design for European brands. Never understood why American main brands don't resource to the best NA firms on the US.
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Old 14-03-2016, 10:08   #412
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

I think it has a lot to do with costs
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Old 14-03-2016, 10:16   #413
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
All the French people I met out there sailing owned their boats. None was leased.

In the EU individuals cannot deduct lease costs, only companies can do this.

Also, regarding VAT, I am not sure where you took your info from: VAT position depends on whether the lease is of the financial or of the operational type. I think in one of the options the VAT is paid up front for the whole period while in the other style you pay (and deduct) VAT as you go. I would have to look up the IFRS standards for this as I am not running a company hence my lease eductaion is possibly not up to date.

An individual is always better off buying cash that financing. Otherwise banks would have long gone bankrupt.

b.
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about regarding leasing. it is like I said. If the boat is newer than 5/7 years and the guy is French or Italian the chances are that the boat is being bought through a leasing.

The practice is so widespread that one that is paying the boat trough a leasing think the boat as being his own and probably it was the reason for that misunderstanding regarding the boat ownership.

The leasing companies belong to banks so it is good business for everybody. They are making more contracts, they receive normal interests on the money and the one that is making leasing buys the boat in 5 years slightly less expensively than if he had bought it cash and all the profit comes from the 11.5% of VAT that is not paid, since the VAT for leasing is only half of the VAT that you would pay if you bought the boat. Vat in Italy is 23% in France 20%.

In the end there is a residual value, something like a 1000 euros regarding a buying option by the holder of the leasing and only that value is subject to 23% VAT (or the VAT of that country) all the rest is payed at half VAT since Leasing as a reduced VAT.

Here you have a simulation regarding a boat that costs new 150 000 euros:
1st payment 73500 euros including VAT at 10% than 47 monthly payments of 1399.55Euros + (VAT 10%) than the buying option with transfer of property, 1500 Euros including VAT 20%.

Total cost in leasing 140.779 euros. Paid in 4 years for less 9221 Euros than if payed cash.

The Dealer will make the same discounts as if it was payed cash since for him it is the same, he will receive all the money from the leasing company when he delivers the boat, or whatever are the conditions for cash payments.

Simulations de leasing nautique | Marine Azur



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Old 14-03-2016, 10:20   #414
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I thought that I knew. I am talking about contemporary models from main brands like Catalina, Hunter or Island Packet. I thought that they were designed on the house by the resident NA that does not have any other significant yacht design curriculum except those designs and that by no means can be considered major yacht designers or main Yacht cabinets (and therefore are 2th rate).

Perhaps you can tell me what are you talking about, what boats and what are the major American NA that design those boats?

By no means I wanted to say that there are not major cabinet designs and Major NA on the US (I mean contemporary ones) but to my knowledge they design for European brands. Never understood why American main brands don't resource to the best NA firms on the US.

Glenn Henderson is the navel architect for Hunter boats. Don't know where Pollux gets his facts. Is the point of this thread to defend some of none sailor or human friendly Eurocentric designs.


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Old 14-03-2016, 10:45   #415
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I think it has a lot to do with costs
You mean using a top NA? I would say you are right if the production is very small but a brand like Catalina, Hunter or even IP (at least as the two last ones used to be regarding production) it is not meaningful. The added value will largely compensate what you pay for a top design.

In Europe only very small production shipyards, almost custom, avoid having the boats designed by a top NA but that is changing too.

Now very small brands like Cyacht are starting to use top NAs and I would say with great improvements. The next CYacht will be designed by Dykstra. Compare the old line and the new one:


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Old 14-03-2016, 10:58   #416
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Hard to compare as the old one is CC and the new one is ACP. ACP is always easier to make attractive but I get your drift. While many of the new boats are attractive in their own way I would not consider any of them as timeless in design, I think they will date themselves just like all of the Euro designs in the last 10 years or so. There are some designs that are 50 years old and they are still beautiful to the eye, we call that timeless, kinda like an XKE Jaguar or maybe an early Corvette. To my eye all the new pizza designs are similar with their sharp angles and high freeboard, cool in their own way for sure but certainly not timeless.
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Old 14-03-2016, 11:20   #417
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Sailor Doug View Post
Glenn Henderson is the navel architect for Hunter boats. Don't know where Pollux gets his facts. Is the point of this thread to defend some of none sailor or human friendly Eurocentric designs.
It seems you are not understanding me. Who is Glenn Henderson as a NA what is its curriculum? It is easy, it designed Hunters and nothing more. He does not even has a site, a thing that even modest NA have.
Sailboat designs of Glenn┬*Henderson by year

A NA that only works for a brand and does not attract many commands from different brands, custom yachts, maxi yachts, racing boats is certainly not a Major NA.

Who design European mass production boats?: Bavaria by Farr, Jeanneau by several major NA (Marc Lombard, Phillipe Briand), Beneteau by several major Na (Finot/Conq, Berret-Racoupeau, Farr), Hanse are designed by judel / vrolijk, Dufour by Felci.

What have those NA firms in common: They are all major ones, they don't design only the boats from those brands, but from other brands, racing boats, custom boats, maxi yachts. They are among the ones that are leading yacht design and certainly among the best....and they have internet sites too, that will allow you to see what I am talking about.

Marc Lombard, architecte naval basÚ Ó La Rochelle
Philippe Briand - Naval Architecture and Yacht Design
finot-conq architectes navals
Farr Yacht Design
Berret Racoupeau Yacht Design - Architecte naval
judel-vrolijk.com
Felci Yacht Design

That is what I mean regarding boats designed in the house by 2th rate NA or boats designed by top NA cabinets.
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Old 14-03-2016, 11:46   #418
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

I would recommend to not become all too happy with the new production boats that are streaming out of the big volume factories. Here is a good story about how a Dufour tried to kill her delivery crew:

https://www.facebook.com/TioPirata/p...53996036547726
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Old 14-03-2016, 13:03   #419
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I would recommend to not become all too happy with the new production boats that are streaming out of the big volume factories. Here is a good story about how a Dufour tried to kill her delivery crew:

https://www.facebook.com/TioPirata/p...53996036547726
Not the point. The point is that for all those NA top cabinets, inexpensive mass production designs are certainly not the designs that they will be more proud about, I mean they are the best on the market in what regards costs, performance and design quality but if they want to show you a benchmark in what regards the bset they have designed they would probably point you to something like this:

If we consider Felci, the designer of the Dufour:




Or if we consider Briand:

Or Finot/Conq:

Or Marc Lombard,

or any of the others..... I guess you understand what I mean.

Regarding mass production boats, one thing is the design quality, other the built quality. I am talking about design quality.

Anyway regarding the Dufour those boats, as any mass production main market boat, are not designed to be sailed on 60k winds. I guess that everybody knows that but that delivery skipper. Sailing one on those conditions is to look for trouble.
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Old 14-03-2016, 13:50   #420
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I would recommend to not become all too happy with the new production boats that are streaming out of the big volume factories. Here is a good story about how a Dufour tried to kill her delivery crew:

https://www.facebook.com/TioPirata/p...53996036547726
A very sobering read.

It suggests a full survey carried out by a properly qualified and HIGHLY EXPERIENCED Marine Surveyor, should be an essential part of buying a new boat.

The sooner people start rejecting delivery of this unacceptable trash, the better.

PS. By the way Polux, you can't have it both ways. You praise fast crossings and the suitability of these boats for it on the one hand, and don't acknowledge that fast routes usually involve storm conditions on the other, then try to let these so called boat builders and Naval Architects off the hook by claiming they "aren't supposed to be sailing in 60 knot winds", which is what you must expect if you sail the fast routes.

*IF* carried out correctly, design is very much an intrinsic part of construction, and what this is saying to me, is the so called Naval Architects are failing in their duty of SUPERVISION for correct construction of their designs! As such they are culpable in the delivery of products that are not fit for either purpose or service.

In fact I now consider your Partisan bias and prejudices to be so extreme (to the point you seem prepared excuse anything, no matter how inexcusable), that you have now earned a place on my ignore list.

Good riddance.
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