Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Island Time O25]

I would be interested to compare the economics of buying a new boat in US/Canada vs. EU. I.e. who buys what, how they finance it, what % of the person's income goes to new boat payments, maintenance, etc. Just anecdotally it seems that the new boat buyer in US is older, often retired or semi retired person from the upper middle class. Thus their tastes probably run toward more conservative or at least less receptive toward shiny new and unproven concepts. While his EU counterpart is probably younger, more adventurous, less set in their ways, also more able to work while cruising (no need for work permits while in EU). It could be as simple as that.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I would be interested to compare the economics of buying a new boat in US/Canada vs. EU. I.e. who buys what, how they finance it, what % of the person's income goes to new boat payments, maintenance, etc. Just anecdotally it seems that the new boat buyer in US is older, often retired or semi retired person from the upper middle class. Thus their tastes probably run toward more conservative or at least less receptive toward shiny new and unproven concepts. While his EU counterpart is probably younger, more adventurous, less set in their ways, also more able to work while cruising (no need for work permits while in EU). It could be as simple as that.

I think, in Europe, all of my our friends who actually sail or otherwise cruise extensively, buy their boats cash in hand. No financing. On the other hand, the boats that tend to spend their time in the marinas and are used mostly on the weekends, tend to be financed. Not a hard rule but a clearly visible trend.

Along the same lines, European boats used for sailing and extensive cruising tend to be older, stronger, time tested designs and less than shiny. Not exclusively, but to a huge extent. Boats used in the marinas tend to be of the newer, lighter style, plenty of chrome, white-off gelcoat and that obligatory big TV-set (oooppps - 'chart plotter') at the helm.

No hard rules, but still some rules.

b.

[barnakiel]

I think one interesting aspect of a modern interior design is how much trouble it gives to most designers. Forty years ago designers had the challenge placing al necessary utilities into too narrow too limited interior spaces. Today, with boats at least 50% longer and often twice beamier, the guy at the desk (who, something is telling me, has never sailed a boat) finds it an even bigger challenge to make use of all the new found space. And so we end up with no longitudinal partitions, no handholds, sharp corners on the furniture and glass partitions in the galley. As if these new boats never rolled, never got wiped out nor capsized. And so we end up with modern interiors. Pretty, in some eyes, and great at the boat show, but how seaworthy?

b.

[robert sailor]

Interesting subject. I think it goes back years ago. Americans loved the salty looking double enders, many designed by Robert Perry. I mean the Valiant 40 won the all time cruising boat in America recently, how does it get more traditional than that. The market for all these salty looking designs was primarily American and while things have changed over the years Americans still have a traditional side when choosing offshore sailboats .

Having said that I think the offshore speed of many of the European cruisers is a bit over stated. When we did our Atlantic crossing with our older boat we were as fast or faster than many of the newer cats and monos in our size range. I'm sure we'd get our butt kicked around the bouys but offshore, not so much.

[boatman61]

Very true Robert.. often the EU shallow bilge boats need to hold their speed down due to the constant slamming.. this is on the W-E Transat.. not so often the following swell/seas.
But then that could just be me and my 'Baby Walker'

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I think, in Europe, all of my our friends who actually sail or otherwise cruise extensively, buy their boats cash in hand. No financing. On the other hand, the boats that tend to spend their time in the marinas and are used mostly on the weekends, tend to be financed. Not a hard rule but a clearly visible trend.

Along the same lines, European boats used for sailing and extensive cruising tend to be older, stronger, time tested designs and less than shiny. Not exclusively, but to a huge extent. Boats used in the marinas tend to be of the newer, lighter style, plenty of chrome, white-off gelcoat and that obligatory big TV-set (oooppps - 'chart plotter') at the helm.

No hard rules, but still some rules.
b.

I don't know about Germany but in Italy or France only a fool will buy a yacht cash, I mean if it is an European, because it will be more expensive.

Everybody buys through a leasing, 5 or 7 years. If you buy it paying it in 5 years it will be less expensive than if bought cash, I mean the total amount of money on both cases, including all leasing expenses, not to mention interests you can have on the money (that you don't pay at front) over the years.

That's because with Leasing you will pay only half the VAT you will pay if you buy it cash and as the VAT is (depending on countries) between 20 and 23% you can see why.

[robert sailor]

Polux I was thinking about one of the points you made, Harley Davidson motorcycles. Europeans in large numbers have been buying these bikes which are about as traditional as you can get with their 1940,s designs. If Europeans are so with it and really appreciate new fast designs in cars and boats how can you explain the herds of them paying really big bucks for 75 year old motorcycle designs designs??

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Interesting subject. I think it goes back years ago. Americans loved the salty looking double enders, many designed by Robert Perry. I mean the Valiant 40 won the all time cruising boat in America recently, how does it get more traditional than that. The market for all these salty looking designs was primarily American and while things have changed over the years Americans still have a traditional side when choosing offshore sailboats .

Having said that I think the offshore speed of many of the European cruisers is a bit over stated. When we did our Atlantic crossing with our older boat we were as fast or faster than many of the newer cats and monos in our size range. I'm sure we'd get our butt kicked around the bouys but offshore, not so much.

That I don't get it. It seems that you crossed the Atlantic in a Valiant 40 instead of an European boat

Regarding your crossing if I am not mistaken you did not make it at the same time as the ARC but some days later and that can be important regarding the weather pattern you get.

Regarding the time a boat takes on a crossing it depends on the boat and on the crew. Not the best crew can sail a slow boat fast but a bad crew can sail a fast boat slowly

Your boat regarding modern designs is at disadvantage mostly in what regards light winds that are not frequent on the trade routes (winds), but are in many other areas.

Anyway if the boats were sailed at the same level your boat would be slower than any modern mass production monohull or multihull and several days slower than a performance monohull or multihull.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux I was thinking about one of the points you made, Harley Davidson motorcycles. Europeans in large numbers have been buying these bikes which are about as traditional as you can get with their 1940,s designs. If Europeans are so with it and really appreciate new fast designs in cars and boats how can you explain the herds of them paying really big bucks for 75 year old motorcycle designs designs??

It was not me that make that point regarding Harley but the American that wrote that magazine article.

Harley have a modern engine and even if Harley are sold in Europe their numbers are very small if compared with the overall number of bikes around.

A Harley is bought for the style (for the ones that like that style) not for performance, efficiency or fun to drive.

That would only be a point if Harley were a significant number regarding all motorcycle in Europe and that is not the case. In fact most European bike riders make fun of the ones that chose to ride a Harley, since they don't ride it for nothing more than a pose, not really because they like to ride bikes. They ride slow but making a lot of noise

[Sailor Doug]

Boat interiors are designed by interior designers not naval architects with the occasional no you can't do that. I think the American market is for bigger boats than what was discussed at German show. Seems like a lot of performance boats mentioned. Might be because not that many docks in Germany.
American boat builders are still suffering from the 2008 melt down and have not seen a market recover.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Sailor Doug

Boat interiors are designed by interior designers not naval architects with the occasional no you can't do that. ...

That's in Europe, on the US they are still designed in the house, mostly by amateurs or 2th rate designers. That is what makes European interiors more interesting, in what regards design quality. They are designed by big international high quality cabinets specialized in that.

One of the best known is Nauta design:
Yacht Design

With the NA that designs the boats it happens the same regarding American or European ones.

[Sailor Doug]

Pollux your facts are poor, you need to research who designs American boats.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't know about Germany but in Italy or France only a fool will buy a yacht cash, I mean if it is an European, because it will be more expensive.

Everybody buys through a leasing, 5 or 7 years. If you buy it paying it in 5 years it will be less expensive than if bought cash, I mean the total amount of money on both cases, including all leasing expenses, not to mention interests you can have on the money (that you don't pay at front) over the years.

That's because with Leasing you will pay only half the VAT you will pay if you buy it cash and as the VAT is (depending on countries) between 20 and 23% you can see why.

All the French people I met out there sailing owned their boats. None was leased.

In the EU individuals cannot deduct lease costs, only companies can do this.

Also, regarding VAT, I am not sure where you took your info from: VAT position depends on whether the lease is of the financial or of the operational type. I think in one of the options the VAT is paid up front for the whole period while in the other style you pay (and deduct) VAT as you go. I would have to look up the IFRS standards for this as I am not running a company hence my lease eductaion is possibly not up to date.

An individual is always better off buying cash that financing. Otherwise banks would have long gone bankrupt.

b.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

That I don't get it. It seems that you crossed the Atlantic in a Valiant 40 instead of an European boat

Regarding your crossing if I am not mistaken you did not make it at the same time as the ARC but some days later and that can be important regarding the weather pattern you get.

Regarding the time a boat takes on a crossing it depends on the boat and on the crew. Not the best crew can sail a slow boat fast but a bad crew can sail a fast boat slowly



Your boat regarding modern designs is at disadvantage mostly in what regards light winds that are not frequent on the trade routes (winds), but are in many other areas.

Anyway if the boats were sailed at the same level your boat would be slower than any modern mass production monohull or multihull and several days slower than a performance monohull or multihull.

Actually we left the same time as the ARC, well one day before I think. We all got similar conditions but still there are variables. You are correct that we don't do our best work in light air but sail above our rating when the winds come up. Either way if we were faster it was a day or two and the same if we were slower so I'd choose a boat that was designed for the task rather than speed because a day one way or the other really doesn't mean much when your crossing oceans.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I would be interested to compare the economics of buying a new boat in US/Canada vs. EU. I.e. who buys what, how they finance it, what % of the person's income goes to new boat payments, maintenance, etc.

Around here (Ontario Canada) about the only place to view and buy a new boat is at the Toronto International Boat Show, held in January of each year. Its a massive show, held indoors, in the middle of winter. There used to be (30 years ago) a good number of sailboats and sailboat vendors were represented. But lately, sailboats make up less than 5% of the show. Unfortunately, most Canadian sailboat manufacturers went out of business years ago.

At the TIBS, the banks have booths lined up next to the boats...ready to lend you a bucket of cash for that impulse purchase.

The boats at the marinas and clubs reflect the same thing...plenty of old, locally built boats, and very few (if any) newer boats. Anything new comes up from the USA. Its much easier to buy a power boat around here.

The only actual new sailboat dealers I can think of are on the US side of Lake Ontario.

As for the finances, I must confess, its a rich mans pastime. My sailing peers are doctors, lawyers, and university professors (mostly engineers). The annual costs (marina, haulout, winter storage, insurance) for a 25' boat doesn't seem to be much less than for a 35' boat.

And sadly, the average age is....old. Very old. The funeral notices go on the bulliten board, next to the ads that say: "estate sale, must sell sailboat". I am always so happy to see a young sailor, or better yet, a young family on a boat...but that's pretty rare. I row about the anchorages checking...just us old folks on our old boats mostly.