Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I agree with boatman that a straight galley works much better on smaller boats,

Not sure I agree ... My 29' can be considered a "smaller boat", I think, and I have a cute little L shaped galley. Helps a lot when under sail or rolling about.

I don't have a decent pic, but here's my interior (this is as I bought her, I've since then changed her lovely dark '70's look):





The galley is tiny, and I'd LOVE a little more room, but it was a trade-off: more then a big(ger) galley, I wanted those long and very comfy settees (or whatever the correct term is for 'langsbanken'). One is 1.85m, the other 1.90m. - so they comfortably sleep most people, even the taller ones (I'm 1.75).

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by morven55

Honestly? You do not believe that there are differences in taste or style? Why are certain countries [cultures] considered to be leaders in clothing, automobile, boat "style" and as a result are copied or used as a basis for development?

Ferrari? Jaguar? Messerschmit? Mitsubshi? Rolling Stones? Bach?

I do agree somewhat the Americans do not have much of a culture being such a new country...more of a blend of many cultures and styles.

I do not know the US. I cannot say. It looks as if the US is varied yet blended.

Europe is a wild array of very varied styles, tastes, ideas and they seem to interact but not blend.

Just think about it, up to a point, the US was a one language country. This sure adds to blending, while her geographical vastness will keep things different (hence different boat styles on different coasts). People are different too, but they speak the same language (well, mostly) and so their cultural anchoring will be close-in.

Europe has never had a common language (except Latin but that was ages ago). With varied languages, people will either disregard or even ignore each other's ideas. And without knowing and without appreciation, there is no blending.

Why are some countries (not cultures) considered leaders in X? Well, at times it may be because they are good at something; at times it only seems so, because we are ignorant and driven by what we are told is good/bad.

Ferrari? Jaguar? Messerschmit? Mitsubshi? Rolling Stones? Bach?
Corvette? Viper? F-16? Volvo? The Beatles? Gerschwin?

You know. ;-) It all seems simple until we start digging in. ;-)

b.

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I do not know the US. I cannot say. It looks as if the US is varied yet blended.

Europe is a wild array of very varied styles, tastes, ideas and they seem to interact but not blend.

Just think about it, up to a point, the US was a one language country. This sure adds to blending, while her geographical vastness will keep things different (hence different boat styles on different coasts). People are different too, but they speak the same language (well, mostly) and so their cultural anchoring will be close-in.

Europe has never had a common language (except Latin but that was ages ago). With varied languages, people will either disregard or even ignore each other's ideas. And without knowing and without appreciation, there is no blending.

Why are some countries (not cultures) considered leaders in X? Well, at times it may be because they are good at something; at times it only seems so, because we are ignorant and driven by what we are told is good/bad.

Ferrari? Jaguar? Messerschmit? Mitsubshi? Rolling Stones? Bach?
Corvette? Viper? F-16? Volvo? The Beatles? Gerschwin?

You know. ;-) It all seems simple until we start digging in. ;-)

b.

How true...especially the last sentence. But I still insist that style and the concept of functionality is unique to each individual culture [even country]. And I certainly do not lump "Europe" into one country or culture. But I will say the concept of EU is baffling to me. I remember as a little boy stopping at every border and having to "show your papers please"...

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Of course there are differences ... that is kind of the point.

Americans say "Europeans" as if they're talking about people from one country or, if you will, "The United States of Europe".
Depending on your definition of Europe, it's 40-something to 50-something countries (not all actually located in Europe) -- that in many case have very little in common.

So I agree with barnakiel completely

If we're going to compare "European" culture, please compare it to the Americas, not America ...

(I find it a little offensive, to be honest, but I have somewhat resigned to the fact that a lot of people from across the pond (not just Americans) just don't understand how many totally different counties they're lumping together, stripping them of pretty much *everything* that makes that country what it is and their peoples of who they are in a cultural / historical sense ...).

Please read my comment...I lived in Europe and I was comparing the different cultural concepts of autos, cars boats. How could you possibly infer that I was lumping all of Europe into one culture? Even considering the language difference? As I mentioned to another comment I don't understand the EU concept either after all these centuries...
Again, I was comparing British, Italian, German, etc. "cultural" concepts of styling, functionality etc.

Good grief Lizzy...in Dutch, that means "good grief Lizzy"... :] sorry don't know how to use those silly little smiley things.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by morven55

(...) But I will say the concept of EU is baffling to me. (...)

You are not alone!!!! :-)

Still, we keep a straight face and we let Americans believe there is something unique, something elusive, educated and cultured in European design, European thinking, and European cuisine. This is about the only way we can sell them some Ferraris, some Harry Potters and some Parmesan. (And some Bavarias, Benneteaus, Jeanneaus, Catanas, Lagoons, HRs, Swans ...)

Whoever winks first ...

;-)
b.

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I do not know the US. I cannot say. It looks as if the US is varied yet blended.

Europe is a wild array of very varied styles, tastes, ideas and they seem to interact but not blend.

Just think about it, up to a point, the US was a one language country. This sure adds to blending, while her geographical vastness will keep things different (hence different boat styles on different coasts). People are different too, but they speak the same language (well, mostly) and so their cultural anchoring will be close-in.

Europe has never had a common language (except Latin but that was ages ago). With varied languages, people will either disregard or even ignore each other's ideas. And without knowing and without appreciation, there is no blending.

Why are some countries (not cultures) considered leaders in X? Well, at times it may be because they are good at something; at times it only seems so, because we are ignorant and driven by what we are told is good/bad.

Ferrari? Jaguar? Messerschmit? Mitsubshi? Rolling Stones? Bach?
Corvette? Viper? F-16? Volvo? The Beatles? Gerschwin?

You know. ;-) It all seems simple until we start digging in. ;-)

b.

Well, how about this:in the 17-18th century, ships from all the countries of Europe had more or less the same basic concept of seaworthiness and the ability to carry goods and commodities over long distances, and the Americans, as decedents of "European culture" [all inclusive] naturally followed the same concepts of design and construction methods. Agreed? Compare with the Polynesians, even of earlier origin, and their large sailing canoes with outriggers or multi hulls. Different culture, different needs etc. Then the Asians [again all inclusive even though of many different countries] follow completely different concepts and even methods of construction. To the European or American sailor the ocean going Junk was an odd duck to say the least. Yet still a highly effective vessel for its purpose, very seaworthy even weatherly, but a "foreign" concept to the outsider.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by morven55

Good grief Lizzy...in Dutch, that means "good grief Lizzy"... :]

Haha, 'good grief' I understand, but not sure what it translates to in Dutch. We'd probably say something like "alsjeblieft, zeg!".

I used your quote because you (and Barnakiel) brought up the reasons why this whole "European culture" thing is so ... annoying, and makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm not even going into the definition of Europe, because those differ from person to person. "Europe" can be the continent, or "European countries" (not all on the European continent!) and sometimes people actually mean the EU, which is something all together different.

Maybe I shouldn't have used your post as a quote, but it was the last on one the subject so the easiest one to pick My post (rant, even) was not directed at you, but all the people who seem to not understand what Europe is -- and more importantly, what is is NOT.

And for those who don't need the headache of all the definitions of "Europe" and what makes a country a 'European country': just think of Europe as the Americas. Close enough - at least a better comparison then Europe and America.

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

You are not alone!!!! :-)

Still, we keep a straight face and we let Americans believe there is something unique, something elusive, educated and cultured in European design, European thinking, and European cuisine. This is about the only way we can sell them some Ferraris, some Harry Potters and some Parmesan. (And some Bavarias, Benneteaus, Jeanneaus, Catanas, Lagoons, HRs, Swans ...)

Whoever winks first ...

;-)
b.

Ah, but there IS something unique, elusive, educated and cultured in European design...not so much the cuisine :]]

We Yanks could never have designed the XKE or the Super Fast 500, or many things so uniquely European. Let alone the love of my life, my little Brit yawl. All the American designers had to follow the standards set down by the much more experienced European designers...evolution...survival of the best qualities as dictated by the sea. In all of the best American designs of Rhodes, Herreschoff, Alden, to name a few, there lives the basic laws of proportion, hull shape etc. of the creators of what we now call yachts.

Obviously my tastes lie with the classics...

And that is the spice of life and the reason for wandering... Yes?

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Haha, 'good grief' I understand, but not sure what it translates to in Dutch. We'd probably say something like "alsjeblieft, zeg!".

I used your quote because you (and Barnakiel) brought up the reasons why this whole "European culture" thing is so ... annoying, and makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm not even going into the definition of Europe, because those differ from person to person. "Europe" can be the continent, or "European countries" (not all on the European continent!) and sometimes people actually mean the EU, which is something all together different.

Maybe I shouldn't have used your post as a quote, but it was the last on one the subject so the easiest one to pick My post (rant, even) was not directed at you, but all the people who seem to not understand what Europe is -- and more importantly, what is is NOT.

And for those who don't need the headache of all the definitions of "Europe" and what makes a country a 'European country': just think of Europe as the Americas. Close enough - at least a better comparison then Europe and America.

I suspect the reason Yanks refer to Europe as Europe is because Europe is that place where all those different countries try to coexist on the same continent. Try and imagine what it would be like to try and describe so many cultures and languages and styles...but you guys do indeed all live on the same continent. Using the word Europe is simply easier than differentiating each individual country. Imagine how difficult that would be. Besides that's what we were taught in school. LOL! :]

[s/v Jedi]

In Holland they were chewing on bones in caves when the Chineese were having their Peking Duck served in palaces. The Italians were the only ones with anyhing edible and the French were glad to steal the recipes, as were others later on, many thinking it was French quisine while that was nothing more than failed executions of Italian recipees
The Dutch, in the end, were so sick of eating carrots with their bones that they were driven to conquer oriental trade routes where they finally found peoples that could cook proper food and this is what saved us. The English copied that as well and today it is just the Germans still chewing the bones

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by morven55

Using the word Europe is simply easier than differentiating each individual country.

Agreed, but people are rarely talking about all the countries ...

I've seen people on this forum saying "Europe" when they're talking about the Med. More often then not, when people post here they want to "sail Europe" they want to go to the Med. Why not just call it that? Much easier and less confusing

Saying "European design" is fine by me, tho not always clear - Dutch design? Italian design? Polish maybe?
Maybe just narrow it down a little to "Eastern Europe" or "Western Europe" for instance

But anything like "European culture" or "Europeans say" or "Europeans like" is just like saying "People living in the Americas say / like". I rarely see people generalizing about the Americas, but all the time about Europe

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

In Holland they were chewing on bones in caves when the Chineese were having their Peking Duck served in palaces. The Italians were the only ones with anyhing edible and the French were glad to steal the recipes, as were others later on, many thinking it was French quisine while that was nothing more than failed executions of Italian recipees
The Dutch, in the end, were so sick of eating carrots with their bones that they were driven to conquer oriental trade routes where they finally found peoples that could cook proper food and this is what saved us. The English copied that as well and today it is just the Germans still chewing the bones

Took a German on as crew once.. came back from a supermarket shop with 50 cans of sauerkraut and not a lot else..

[Lizzy Belle]

No bratwurst?

(I do like me some sauerkraut tho - make it myself, but only eat a little at a time ).

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Took a German on as crew once.. came back from a supermarket shop with 50 cans of sauerkraut and not a lot else..

Makes me wonder who's bones she planned to have with that

[Sailor Doug]

Lizzy Belle if you put mayonnaise on your fritz you are European. 😃 Using term European is like using the term American by not mentioning Mexico and Canada all having a distinct culture.
I think tumble home and lee boards are from a Dutch sailing culture. Americans donated gaffs to theirs. Me I like plump bow long water line scooped transom no wood and classic beauty. ⛵️⛵️⛵️


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