Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

No bratwurst?

(I do like me some sauerkraut tho - make it myself, but only eat a little at a time ).

That was the not much else..
I prefer my cabbage fresh, chopped and sautéed in butter with grated fresh ginger and a sprinkle of Garam Masala.. not soaked in vinegar.

[Lizzy Belle]

European Boat Design ...

Originally Posted by boatman61

not soaked in vinegar.

Eeuw! That's store bought crap, not home made

Real sauerkraut is fermented, and not with vinegar ... Just cabbage, water and a little salt.
Maybe caraway seeds or something else you like for taste.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

European Boat Design ...





.....................

There must be some better images of European boat design than this huge red sabot and the computer generated cartoon adrift with no sails or crew.

[snort]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

There must be some better images of European boat design than this huge red sabot and the computer generated cartoon adrift with no sails or crew.

That was good!

[boatman61]

Hows this... 'Torbay Lass' over 100 yrs old and going strong..timber
.. and one of todays designs by Discovery Yachts..
Mind.. these are not European boats.. they're British..

[Hudson Force]

Ah, yes Boatman,- much better!

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

There must be some better images of European boat design than this huge red sabot and the computer generated cartoon adrift with no sails or crew.

Hahaha!
I'm sorry ... I'm lazy and simply used pics that were posted somewhere else.
I'll do better next time

[four winds]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

European design.... Rocks compared to Grandpa's 1980's American designs.

What make is this? Would like to search more pics.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by morven55

Well, how about this:in the 17-18th century, ships from all the countries of Europe had more or less the same basic concept of seaworthiness and the ability to carry goods and commodities over long distances, and the Americans, as decedents of "European culture" [all inclusive] naturally followed the same concepts of design and construction methods. Agreed? Compare with the Polynesians, even of earlier origin, and their large sailing canoes with outriggers or multi hulls. Different culture, different needs etc. Then the Asians [again all inclusive even though of many different countries] follow completely different concepts and even methods of construction. To the European or American sailor the ocean going Junk was an odd duck to say the least. Yet still a highly effective vessel for its purpose, very seaworthy even weatherly, but a "foreign" concept to the outsider.

Generally agreed, allowing for the small adjustment that our sailing boats are NOT descendants of 17-18 century ships as much as they are descendants of working boats.

Alas, if we assume we generally agree on the above, we will run into a finding that is somewhat opposite to OP's idea. Given the perspective of what working boats were like - at the point when they transformed into yachts (first) and pleasure sailing boats (somewhat later) - then that flat light lifting keel Southerly should be a US design and that "heavy & deep" Valiant should be an old world design. They are not.

You will clearly see my point when you look at early AC contestants. And yet, over time, the respective designs drifted towards a roughly centered design gravity point. And today there are hardly any differences between what is being built and sailed in the US and Europe.

There are J-boats and X-Yachts and Hylases and HallbergRassys and Valiants and Overseas built in respective areas and so what is being sailed is what is available. No cultural differences in yacht choices.

Two things for sure, plenty of cats and few junk rigs - Polynesia vs. Asia - 1:0. Pretty odd finding, given that Asians sailed round the world while Polynesians only from one island to another.

Cheers,
b.

[Panope]

Does anyone have an idea if re-fitting older boats and "Do-it-Yourself" are more prevalent on one side of the pond or the other?

Steve

[s/v Jedi]

Here's another one of those full keel pigs:

[Polux]

The richness of Europe comes from the variety of the cultures that form their fabric and many of those cultures are not coincident with countries, meaning that most countries have several different cultures.

Those differences, that contribute for the overall richness, are different layers of a common heritage that all Europeans share and reflects European values. European cultures are different members of the same family with much more in common among them than with anybody else in their vision of the world and reality.

Only an European that does not have travelled extensively and have not interacted with other European cultures can have an ethnocentric vision of Europe. That can still happen regarding old people, but ask the kids about that and most of them will tell that they feel culturally bonded to their culture and country but also to Europe as a cultural basic entity that define common values.

Many programs have been implemented to strengthen that common cultural basis, through exchanges of students between Universities (Erasmus program) and through exchanges of young people doing community social activities in groups constituted by kids from different countries (Comenius).

My wife worked with Comenius programs giving Portuguese classes to kids (20- 25 years old) that were participating for 6 months on social programs on our home town, kids from all over Europe that lived together and bonded between them in an incredible way. Most of them will be friends for live, and keep meeting together in several countries.

Regarding culture and aesthetics even if some local differences exist the European art history is common since medieval ages and all countries experienced the same influences and art periods. Much more than a different art history common to each country you have an European art history with different aspects and characteristics in different European cultures.

I feel a bit odd writing about this because this is common knowledge and I only do so because some seem to have inaccurate ideas about all this.

More than expressing myself those common values that translate in European identity and in what differentiate us from others, I will give the word to Gerard Delanty, a professor of Sociology at Liverpool University that has several works about European identity:

"...European identity refers not to a capitalised Identity, but identities in the plural—such as national, regional, political, etc.—that are defined by an orientation to a broad cultural conception of Europe. Here, European identity is a generalised mode of self-understanding through which groups, whole societies, movements, and so forth, define their relation to others....

What is distinctive about Europe that marks its cultural identity? ....
“What is distinctive about Europe as opposed to Asia or America or other global identities?”...

Europe is one of the few parts of the world where religion has ceased to be a politically significant factor. In this it is unlike the United States....

Influential European intellectuals, including such prominent figures as Jacques Derrida and Jürgen Habermas, have argued in the wake of the controversial Iraq War in 2003 that the United States has betrayed the cherished ideas and ideals of modernity. Their argument is that the very principles of modern democracy and cosmopolitanism that the American Revolution embodied and that were a beacon to Europe and the rest of the world for some two centuries have been abandoned in a descent into empire-building. These intellectuals see the challenge of European identity to be the preservation of these democratic and cosmopolitan values....

Undoubtedly, some people will see in this a danger that European identity may be defined as anti-Americanism. However, despite some cultural predispositions among the European intelligentsia towards anti-Americanism, this would appear to be more of an American invention than a current reality....and European critical responses to American politics are not significantly different from opposition within the United States.....

The historical tension between Christianity and Islam has lost its cultural capacity to define societal identity....There is no convincing empirical evidence that Islam is a “threat” to Europe or incompatible with European values. (There is of course the separate question of militant fundamentalism, but this must be considered as part of the wider phenomenon of fundamentalism, which is not an exclusively non-Western phenomenon.)

There is a strong case for linking European identity with the cosmopolitanism of European cultural and political modernity. It is important to appreciate that this kind of identity is not merely a collective identity in the conventional sense of the term. We are not talking about the collective identity of a particular group of Europeans or an official legitimating identity for the European Union, but of an emerging cultural model. Even without the European Union this would exist.....

Of the wide range of political philosophies, ideals and movements that have characterised European modernity, the tradition that is most distinctively European is the aspiration for social justice.....

The belief in a social project has been more a part of European political modernity than of political modernity elsewhere on the globe. The vision of solidarity and social justice has animated many of the major social movements in modern Europe, leading to the foundation of the twentieth-century welfare state, which is arguably the European political legacy....This is particularly striking when Europe is compared to the United States....

According to Will Hutton, there are three clusters of values that define Europe: the stakeholder view of property, belief in the social contract, and commitment to a vital public realm. There is, he argues, a distinctive kind of European capitalism, which is based on uniquely European values and needs to be fostered so that it does not become like American capitalism with its veneration of the stock market and corporate economic freedom, and its acceptance of social marginalisation. Europe’s values entail a more responsible kind of capitalism held in check by the institutions of civil society...."

I bet that many Americans after reading this will say: Nany states, socialists, anti-Americans and Muslim friends...well, that is a very common view of Americans regarding Europeans.

Off course regarding that common American view of Europeans, we do not see things exactly the same way...and that is why we are different and share common values among us even if we share also many, but not all, with Americans or other big cultural groups

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here's another one of those full keel pigs:

Very nice, but just look at the amount of sail it has to carry to go at hull speed

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hows this... 'Torbay Lass' over 100 yrs old and going strong..timber
.. and one of todays designs by Discovery Yachts..
Mind.. these are not European boats.. they're British..

Very nice the traditional British boats or classics, but in what regards modern cruisers, well, they are efficient but in what concerns beauty....well

[Sailing55]

Originally Posted by Polux

The richness of Europe comes from the variety of the cultures that form their fabric and many of those cultures are not coincident with countries, meaning that most countries have several different cultures.

Those differences, that contribute for the overall richness, are different layers of a common heritage that all Europeans share and reflects European values. European cultures are different members of the same family with much more in common among them than with anybody else in their vision of the world and reality.

Only an European that does not have travelled extensively and have not interacted with other European cultures can have an ethnocentric vision of Europe. That can still happen regarding old people, but ask the kids about that and most of them will tell that they feel culturally bonded to their culture and country but also to Europe as a cultural basic entity that define common values.

Many programs have been implemented to strengthen that common cultural basis, through exchanges of students between Universities (Erasmus program) and through exchanges of young people doing community social activities in groups constituted by kids from different countries (Comenius).

My wife worked with Comenius programs giving Portuguese classes to kids (20- 25 years old) that were participating for 6 months on social programs on our home town, kids from all over Europe that lived together and bonded between them in an incredible way. Most of them will be friends for live, and keep meeting together in several countries.

Regarding culture and aesthetics even if some local differences exist the European art history is common since medieval ages and all countries experienced the same influences and art periods. Much more than a different art history common to each country you have an European art history with different aspects and characteristics in different European cultures.

I feel a bit odd writing about this because this is common knowledge and I only do so because some seem to have inaccurate ideas about all this.

More than expressing myself those common values that translate in European identity and in what differentiate us from others, I will give the word to Gerard Delanty, a professor of Sociology at Liverpool University that has several works about European identity:

"...European identity refers not to a capitalised Identity, but identities in the plural—such as national, regional, political, etc.—that are defined by an orientation to a broad cultural conception of Europe. Here, European identity is a generalised mode of self-understanding through which groups, whole societies, movements, and so forth, define their relation to others....

What is distinctive about Europe that marks its cultural identity? ....
“What is distinctive about Europe as opposed to Asia or America or other global identities?”...

Europe is one of the few parts of the world where religion has ceased to be a politically significant factor. In this it is unlike the United States....

Influential European intellectuals, including such prominent figures as Jacques Derrida and Jürgen Habermas, have argued in the wake of the controversial Iraq War in 2003 that the United States has betrayed the cherished ideas and ideals of modernity. Their argument is that the very principles of modern democracy and cosmopolitanism that the American Revolution embodied and that were a beacon to Europe and the rest of the world for some two centuries have been abandoned in a descent into empire-building. These intellectuals see the challenge of European identity to be the preservation of these democratic and cosmopolitan values....

Undoubtedly, some people will see in this a danger that European identity may be defined as anti-Americanism. However, despite some cultural predispositions among the European intelligentsia towards anti-Americanism, this would appear to be more of an American invention than a current reality....and European critical responses to American politics are not significantly different from opposition within the United States.....

The historical tension between Christianity and Islam has lost its cultural capacity to define societal identity....There is no convincing empirical evidence that Islam is a “threat” to Europe or incompatible with European values. (There is of course the separate question of militant fundamentalism, but this must be considered as part of the wider phenomenon of fundamentalism, which is not an exclusively non-Western phenomenon.)

There is a strong case for linking European identity with the cosmopolitanism of European cultural and political modernity. It is important to appreciate that this kind of identity is not merely a collective identity in the conventional sense of the term. We are not talking about the collective identity of a particular group of Europeans or an official legitimating identity for the European Union, but of an emerging cultural model. Even without the European Union this would exist.....

Of the wide range of political philosophies, ideals and movements that have characterised European modernity, the tradition that is most distinctively European is the aspiration for social justice.....

The belief in a social project has been more a part of European political modernity than of political modernity elsewhere on the globe. The vision of solidarity and social justice has animated many of the major social movements in modern Europe, leading to the foundation of the twentieth-century welfare state, which is arguably the European political legacy....This is particularly striking when Europe is compared to the United States....

According to Will Hutton, there are three clusters of values that define Europe: the stakeholder view of property, belief in the social contract, and commitment to a vital public realm. There is, he argues, a distinctive kind of European capitalism, which is based on uniquely European values and needs to be fostered so that it does not become like American capitalism with its veneration of the stock market and corporate economic freedom, and its acceptance of social marginalisation. Europe’s values entail a more responsible kind of capitalism held in check by the institutions of civil society...."

I bet that many Americans after reading this will say: Nany states, socialists, anti-Americans and Muslim friends...well, that is a very common view of Americans regarding Europeans.

Off course regarding that common American view of Europeans, we do not see things exactly the same way...and that is why we are different and share common values among us even if we share also many, but not all, with Americans or other big cultural groups

You seem like a decent sort, and I will enjoy absorbing this tomorrow...but I am old and tired tonight.
Thanks for the effort, and many of us Americans do indeed value our "European" heritage. Irish, Austrian, British for me.