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Old 30-09-2010, 05:42   #31
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I guess the folks that sail across the Atlantic with ARC haven't heard that Bene/Bavaria/Jeanneau, etc. aren't blue water boats. There's about 60 or 70 of them entered. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/entries.aspx
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Old 30-09-2010, 06:09   #32
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
JUst what is a "ideal blue water boat" and its associated full form, yours is only an opinion, in fact I would wager that more benes, jeanneaus and bavs have "blue watered" then any other make given the numbes produced.

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Well, I am usually full of opinions, but in this particular case, I think it's a fairly non-controversial fact, that the primary mission of mid-range Benes (I'm not talking about the Farr designed B57 of course) is definitely not long ocean passages. I think the Beneteau people would be the first to tell you that themselves.

It doesn't mean that they are not blue water capable -- of course they are, ask our own MarkJ, who's been around the world on one --but a boat which is intended primarily for long ocean passages will have much more tank capacity, will be heavier built, and will not have the flat forefeet of mid-range Benes. Benes are specifically designed for coastal cruising, which is what 90% of sailboats in this size range are used for anyway, so there's nothing in the world wrong with that.

And that they do really well -- I actually like Beneteaus a lot. I've chartered them on multiple occasions and I know them, so I'm speaking from experience. The flat sections give a great turn of speed, and that's the right design choice for sailors who are usually close enough to land to come in out of a storm, and who are not often spending nights on passage. A purpose-built blue water boat will have sharper, deeper foresections which cost some speed, but which eliminate pounding in heavy seas and add a little directional stability. Both hull shapes are a compromise; it just depends on what the boat's primary mission is.

Big tanks are a disadvantage for a coastal cruiser, especially big fuel tanks, which accumulate condensation when they're not kept full. That's why Benes don't have them.

Horses for courses.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:56   #33
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God the uninformed snobbery
( I used to design robots, machine built is better built).
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Oh puhleese!

Machines work on code, So garbage in gives garbage out. What machines excel at is uniform results and efficiency. If the design is crappy, then crappy product will be built uniformly crappy across all output.


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Old 02-10-2010, 09:23   #34
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I own a Beneteau 331. I have been sailing for 35 years. I have owned a Cal 40, Mason 33, and a Cal 24 previously. I really like the "new" hull designs.
I have been sailing the Beneteau for 6 years now and have logged about 8,000 miles.
I believe that those who are always bashing the new hull designs in favor of old heavy displacement designs have not sailed on a new hull design enough to understand how they work and how to sail them.
My Beneteau is a Finot design. CE rate class "A" Offshore.
I will never sail around Cape Horn. But my guess is that 99.9% of sailors won't either.
For what I do (sailing singlehanded within 40 degrees of the equator) I am quite happy with my boat.
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Old 02-10-2010, 18:25   #35
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And that they do really well -- I actually like Beneteaus a lot. I've chartered them on multiple occasions and I know them, so I'm speaking from experience. The flat sections give a great turn of speed, and that's the right design choice for sailors who are usually close enough to land to come in out of a storm, and who are not often spending nights on passage. A purpose-built blue water boat will have sharper, deeper foresections which cost some speed, but which eliminate pounding in heavy seas and add a little directional stability. Both hull shapes are a compromise; it just depends on what the boat's primary mission is.

Big tanks are a disadvantage for a coastal cruiser, especially big fuel tanks, which accumulate condensation when they're not kept full. That's why Benes don't have them.

Not so , have a look at modern Oysters, or Ovnis etc , They are all going towards less imersed forefoots and flatter canoe bodies , why becuase its SAILS BETTER, ( witness the Volvo, Vendee globe etc).

As to tankage , well "blue water boats" need it as the owners typically dont sail anywhere, they basically bought a motor boat with a redundant stick. Thats why

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a coastal cruiser,
again and again, this point is ignored, Benes etc are made in a country that has seas that are far worse then any "blue water", We live above the 40 south 40 north that so called "blue water" boats sail in. These benes etc are well well capable of anything that some measily tropical ocean can throw at them.

As to what Beneteau say , why not ask them , I have , they say you can go anywhere you like on a Beneteau, and many many have.

Dave
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:52   #36
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I saw a couple on a Bavaria in Malaysia last year. The thing is I have no idea how they got it here. They must be helicoptering the boat in to places they want to visit and then flying commercially to join it.

BTW - If I was a Bavaria owner, I might have something interesting to say about my boat but based on the tone of some of these posts I would be a little fearful of the backwash.

And watching the traffic for 5 years here in Singapore and Malaysia I can attest that the split between "true bluewater" boats and production plastic boats is about 50/50.

MarkJ is my poster boy for production boat circumnavigation. Go read most of his almost 5,000 posts. He takes care of the important things on the boat and plans his trips very carefully. Almost around the world in a "POS bendytoy." He'll be the first to tell you (I guess) that he wouldn't want to spend much, if any, time in the high latitudes fighting force 12s, but who does?
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Old 02-10-2010, 20:32   #37
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POS bendytoy
I presume thats tongue in cheek, because otherwise as a moderator its very insulting to MarkJ
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Old 02-10-2010, 21:04   #38
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I presume thats tongue in cheek, because otherwise as a moderator its very insulting to MarkJ
I'm quite sure it is.
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Old 02-10-2010, 21:06   #39
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GBN - Absolutely correct. My tongue in cheek indicator was clearly switched off. I have inserted, I hope, appropriate similes and quote marks.

I am a fairly committed production boat fan.
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Old 02-10-2010, 22:07   #40
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This reminds me of a whole bunch of similar - my boat is better than your boat - discussions on another popular but nameless sailing forum. Far too many pompous expert wanna-bees there to get any substantive and objective info. It appears lots of folks think criticism makes them sound authoritative. The (other forum) disease seems to be spreading here through ethernet cables...
Are you saying that as a former owner of a Bene 321 and 331.... when I say Bavaria's are crap I'm a pompus wanna be... regardless of the fact that someone who bought a 2002 Bavaria and then came onto my 2001 331 said ... Damn I knew we shoulda looked at Beneteau's...
That was the woman speaking... not the husband.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:35   #41
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Ha ha ha, I was wondering if this would turn into a bluewater v production boat "discussion". I was a bit naive thinking the descussion would be limited to the relative merits of the various mass market production boats

Over the past couple of days I have had a look on a couple of Benneteau's Oceanis (381 & 411), Jeanneau Sun Odyssey's (37 & 40) and a Bavaria 38. The B38 was not a for sale boat and was 5 tears old compared with the others being 10 to 12. They all are charter boats and of the old ones, the SO37 has survived the experience in much better condition.

Of the Bavaria 38, it was very different inside compared with the new show boat Bavarias I have seen. There was a lot more wood and less cheap plastic compared with the new boats. I guess if you option them up you can make them feel more comfortable inside. Although the little lockers around the nav table had tin doors with a very gross fake wood look

On a side note about Bavaria's I met up with my ex a couple of weeks ago, she had never sailed until after we broke up and met her current boyfriend. We talked about sailing and she aggressively put down Bavaria's (she was agro about a lot of things, not planning to meet like that again ) Given that my ex sails on a very old & narrow 29 footer that lacks the modern amenities and probably a portapotty under one of the berths (it seems to be disgusting common on the old Swedish boats that were built for the local mass market) I have a feeling she would love to have even a Bavaria to sail

Back to my original question.

I does not sound like Bavaria are any worse than other high volume production boats. They can go were most people want to sail them if well prepared and the journey is well planned and the skipper uses it's speed to sail around bad weather as much as he can. (Whilst I can see the points made by the bluewater boat brigade, I also see the sense in what MarkJ says)

It seems to me that the biggest problem with the Bavarias is what I first noticed in the boat show. The are built to a price and the fit and finish on the inside is where this really shows. I guess they are a great way for a family to buy a boat that fits the family and the budget.

At the moment the SO37 is on the top of my shopping list I a have noticed that there is one for sail in the UK that is fresh from a circumnavigation. I'm pretty sure they were not meaning a circumnavigation of the Isle of Wight

Anyway it is two days before I hit the water to see a Bavaria in action
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:37   #42
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A very short one on Bavarias: In 32 years of extensive blue water sailing I only had one, one single one really (REALLY!) scary trip: That was the delivery of a fairly new Bavaria 38! (And the fright was NOT for neither the weather itself nor the ability of the crew!)
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:16   #43
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A very short one on Bavarias: In 32 years of extensive blue water sailing I only had one, one single one really (REALLY!) scary trip: That was the delivery of a fairly new Bavaria 38! (And the fright was NOT for neither the weather itself nor the ability of the crew!)
Please do tell more

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Old 03-10-2010, 03:29   #44
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again and again, this point is ignored, Benes etc are made in a country that has seas that are far worse then any "blue water", We live above the 40 south 40 north that so called "blue water" boats sail in. These benes etc are well well capable of anything that some measily tropical ocean can throw at them.Dave
Living here at 51.N it's easy to forget that as you spend another night bashing your way home across the channel. The French do have a lot of Atlantic coastline to sail on so they better make good boats if they want to sell them to the home market.

Hoppy, you might ask yourself why Jeanneaus are popular with the charter fleets? Because they are available with a good discount for multiple orders? well yes. Because they meet the needs of the charters? yes. Because they are built well enough to stay together despite ham fisted use by charterers, yes

Sunsail have a fleet of Jen 37s in the Solent at the moment, must be a fleet of 40 matched yachts. They are a pain because you never know if the skipper is experienced and knows what he is doing or some hooray henry from the city down for a weekend. However the fleet and they are not new, are out there week in week out, in UK weather bashing waves and tides, pontoons and each other whilst racing and they still keep going despite the ham fisted novice crews.

We did seriously consider an older Jen Sunrise 35, but the previous owner had made such a mess of it. Mast rigged with an S shape in it. 4 x Batteries glued in with expanding foam and now dead and a potential 6k import duty liability, so we walked. However, it could have suited us very well.

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Old 03-10-2010, 03:36   #45
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Please do tell more
Nothing much to tell - just plain scary.......
(Dont know the exact English term, but when standing at the helm you would see the hull twist in every possible direction - the sounds it makes while doing so and even so there was a 5cm gap around the mast and the salon-table you better not stick your fingers into this gap while sailing or it get smashed there) ..... scary, REALLY scary!

I personally prefer British built and designed boats because they seem to follow the rule of thumb: "form follows function" while the french tend to get carried away with "design" and sometimes fall for the "function follows beauty" trap.
Many an UK built/designed boat seems to be plain ugly - but these things take their crews around the world, and again, and again - even outside the coconut-milk-run.
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