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Old 21-02-2014, 19:37   #1
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Opinions Sought on Newish Old vs. Older Boat Purchase

I'd like to get some input on the importance of age on a 36-40' production coastal cruiser.

In our price range (55-75k), we seem to be faced with a decision. Go with an early 80's semi custom boat like a Tartan or Sabre, a late 80's boat like an Ericson or CS, or a mid to late 90's Benny/Jenny.

Factors include the boat's condition and maintenance, the ability to finance the boat, and boat design and production quality.

Often we're seeing old Tartan's and Sabres priced high, causing our ability to finance lowered. We're skittish on the Beneteau & Jenneau quality on a 20 year old boat. Should we be? The Ericson's & CS Yacht models might be the compromise in the middle.

Should we go down in size, in order to get a newer boat? (We really wouldn't want to go below a 36'. ) Should we trust the French quality from 20+ years ago? The 15-20 year old Tartans and Sabres are out of our price range, so that's not an option.

What to do?
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Old 21-02-2014, 20:07   #2
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

We looked at a Beneteau First 42, would not be overly concerned about the quality on that boat. The newer the B-boat you look at, the more you have to be concerned about the quality of construction.
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Old 21-02-2014, 21:01   #3
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

The Benni first series from the 80's were good boats but are getting harder to find in great condition. They were not built with glued in liners.
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Old 21-02-2014, 21:49   #4
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMac View Post
I'd like to get some input on the importance of age on a 36-40' production coastal cruiser.

In our price range (55-75k), we seem to be faced with a decision. Go with an early 80's semi custom boat like a Tartan or Sabre, a late 80's boat like an Ericson or CS, or a mid to late 90's Benny/Jenny.

Factors include the boat's condition and maintenance, the ability to finance the boat, and boat design and production quality.

Often we're seeing old Tartan's and Sabres priced high, causing our ability to finance lowered. We're skittish on the Beneteau & Jenneau quality on a 20 year old boat. Should we be? The Ericson's & CS Yacht models might be the compromise in the middle.

Should we go down in size, in order to get a newer boat? (We really wouldn't want to go below a 36'. ) Should we trust the French quality from 20+ years ago? The 15-20 year old Tartans and Sabres are out of our price range, so that's not an option.

What to do?
Have you and the Husband sailed on any of the boats you are mentioning.?

I do not mean to come across as judgemental or all knowing on these boats. But based on your questions on this post and previous post you guys got to go test the boats you're looking to buy or go for the rock bottom end of your budget and find out what you want.

I personally would not trust any French production boat on your budget if you plan to cruise long term or plan to do any substantial passages. Thats not to say I don't like some French boats. I've always liked the Amels but could never bring myself to buy one because they are not especially pleasing to me on the exterior.

You have the budget range that I call the holy crap what should I chose from budget! That is between 50k and 250k in my mind. At 75k you could either buy a nightmare or your best nightmare. I always shoot for my best nightmare. I ldon't like waking up screaming and sweating over my boat.

Now after my rant here is my recommendation. IMHO plan your cruising life (destination wise) then create a post with your budget and goals in destinations.

My sub recommendation from above is if you're wanting a go anywhere almost ready boat you're going to have to up your budget by at least 100k.

When I was younger I bought and sold plenty of sub 50k boats and my outfitting cost typically ranged between 50 and 100k to get them to that safe secure condition to go offshore. That is not to say you can't do it for less. I don't know what your personal combined skill sets are or what your comfortable doing. But my personal goal has always been going offshore. For me personally, I live %20 on the hook %60 coastal and island hopping and %20 doing long range offshore passages.

To be actually very honest here. I've known the best boat for me is the Amel 53 now 54. But I can get past the exterior appearance to close on it. If they built a boat with the Alden or a traditional exterior and the Amel interior, rigging arrangements and build quality I would bankrupt myself to buy it. Because I could see myself meeting my maker on that fictional boat.
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Old 22-02-2014, 00:44   #5
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Whilst I agree with Satdiver on the money to be spent to get a boat ocean worthy, we don't know where and under what circumstances the OP intends to sail. A large part of the cost involved will depend on how demanding your trips are going to be.

Personally I had a similar dilemma as the OP's two years ago. I could not live with the cheap feel and limited quality of many production manufacturers and decided to go with a Baltic 38DP. After 30 years she is still a formidable ship. Everything works, no creaking and a real quality feel to everything.

My boat had a full refit in 2005/6, but even so I have had to replace many, many, many things. If a refit was done more than 6 years ago expect to have to replace things, such as electronics or parts of the rigging. Don't underestimate the cost of this. I have already spent more than I paid for the boat (and purchase price was over your budget). But not everyone does things the way I do. All I am saying is that 50k goes before you know it.

Whatever you do, make sure you what shape the boat is in below the waterline. Our ship needed a rebuild of the lower part of the hull (we knew that), and that alone was around $30k.


Onno
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Old 22-02-2014, 00:50   #6
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

One thing to keep in mind is that you could have a tough time financing a boat over 30 years old, and if you get something close to that cutoff, it could affect resale, as the person purchasing it from you will also run into that issue.

Given the constraints you provided, I'd be thinking newer Beneteau. If you get a boat towards the older end of the spectrum you mentioned, there will likely be some additional refit costs after you buy the boat.

There is no substitute for going out and looking at boats. I'd look at all the ones you mentioned. I have a feeling you'll know it when you see it.
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Old 22-02-2014, 01:56   #7
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post

Whatever you do, make sure you what shape the boat is in below the waterline. Our ship needed a rebuild of the lower part of the hull (we knew that), and that alone was around $30k.
Onno
Just curious, what was going on below the water line that turned out to be a 30k project?

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
One thing to keep in mind is that you could have a tough time financing a boat over 30 years old, and if you get something close to that cutoff, it could affect resale, as the person purchasing it from you will also run into that issue.

Given the constraints you provided, I'd be thinking newer Beneteau. If you get a boat towards the older end of the spectrum you mentioned, there will likely be some additional refit costs after you buy the boat.

There is no substitute for going out and looking at boats. I'd look at all the ones you mentioned. I have a feeling you'll know it when you see it.
This is complete misinformation. I've financed a boat exceeding 75 years old that was wooden and sold the boat with ease to a person with sub par credit that had no problem financing the boat. It depends on a survey and market value and the buyers credit which is the same for any boat over 15 years old.

Most (accomplished) brokers will tell you this and most banks will. It's your job on resell to provide this info. If you have to Broker your boat it's your job as a seller to provide a list of banks willing to finance it.

When you look a large scale production boats you can actually lose a ton of money because your vessels market is saturated.

For example I'd rather invest in a older 37ft vessel with a outstanding reputation and following that does not have more that 20 on the market than a newer 37ft boat with a questionable reputation and 200 on the market.

When I was a boat yard/builder welder as a kid we used to see all the new guys list their boats with the yards brokerage office for almost %50 less that what the paid to build the thing a few years earlier. Then you'd see the next dreamer buy and load the boat out and list the boat at another massive loss.

All those third hand buyers always made out well, best lesson I have learned in boat buying. But you have to know what your looking at.

A trick I learned was ignore the cosmetics and electronics. i.e. never buy a boat that is promoted as fully equip or loaded out. Nor a boat that has a blue hull or pristine wood work.

All are easy enough fixes or changes either on your own or with cheap labor.

Buy a ugly boat exterior wise at a good price, that is a good brand and regularly used, with a good following and is rare to the market with small owners associations.

Get these things with bad woodwork (maintenance) ect.. with a solid hull and be prepared to re plumb and do electrical work as your first investment.

The next trick is to find the seller that has had enough of trying to get his money back after he made his boat pretty and ignored all major systems.

Anyone mad at me for saying this do you think I deserve a extra 100k on my rental in NYC because I have a Jacuzzi tub? and added granite counter tops? thats what my neighbours in the identical place next to me added for the 10k and the broker added 500k to the listing price. With the renovation they had the city certified appraiser come in to increase the tax value. Blew my mind.

I'll go nuts on a broker in my next post and how I've never used one ever.
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Old 22-02-2014, 06:45   #8
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

The original question is really about the degree one wants to be a boat snob, if you really think that a "name" on a 1981 boat outweighs anything at the same price of 1988 boat you are just considering snob appeal.

When looking any 80s boat: get the boat that you like best and is in the best condition, period!
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Old 22-02-2014, 06:49   #9
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

The credit market is not what it was 10 years ago. We just sold a 2010 Beneteau 36.7, the only offers we had were from cash buyers. The credit buyers had a difficult time finding banks willing to loan money. When I first put the boat up for sale I tried getting pre-approved from two different loan brokers. One lender kept changing the requirements and ultimately said that for a loan on a boat I would need to have reserves equal to the loan amount. I would love to know which lenders are actually working with buyers. We have excellent credit and $$$ for a down payment.
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Old 22-02-2014, 07:35   #10
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
One thing to keep in mind is that you could have a tough time financing a boat over 30 years old, and if you get something close to that cutoff, it could affect resale, as the person purchasing it from you will also run into that issue.

Given the constraints you provided, I'd be thinking newer Beneteau. If you get a boat towards the older end of the spectrum you mentioned, there will likely be some additional refit costs after you buy the boat.

There is no substitute for going out and looking at boats. I'd look at all the ones you mentioned. I have a feeling you'll know it when you see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
The original question is really about the degree one wants to be a boat snob, if you really think that a "name" on a 1981 boat outweighs anything at the same price of 1988 boat you are just considering snob appeal.

When looking any 80s boat: get the boat that you like best and is in the best condition, period!
Julie... You can't armchair this one... I bolded the best comments here... GO WALK THE DOCKS!

My opinion is that ANY boat on your list is a good boat... Depending on what you plan to sail her in...

One caveat... If resale is high on your list... 90's benny/jenny are a dime a dozen now... age them ten years, a nickle a dozen... BUT ...If you've bought one that already depreciated massively... your loss will be negligible...

Me? Early semi custom...
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Old 22-02-2014, 07:57   #11
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

SAIL what you have on list and see if you like how they sail and handle and then buy.
novel concept.
used to be practice,now is rare...
how can you know how the boat fits you if you dont sail it.
what fits someone else may not be your best choice for you.
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Old 22-02-2014, 08:21   #12
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If going older, look closely at boats from the Great Lakes. Very short seasonal use in freshwater reduces wear and tear and lowers the effective age. Reduced demand in those regions pushes prices lower. Factor in cost of search and transport. Might be a good place for you to start.
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Old 22-02-2014, 08:35   #13
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

Similar threads have appeared before. Ultimately you will have to go with your gut. You will get dozens of different opinions. ... as with asking about anchors. But where you will go and your sailing and mechanical skills are more of a factor than anything. Comfort and fit are as important as age and builder of boat. ... unless there are major blisters..fiberglass gets harder and harder and lasts a looooong time.so with the exception of rigging and sails that will likely need replacement in an older boat. .. it is the systems that really will cause massive and costly problems if old and worn. . And that had little to do with maker of the boat. ..and is usually more related to use and maintenance rather than just age. ..
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Old 22-02-2014, 08:35   #14
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

Actually, I agree with the comment above that says any boat on your list will meet your needs.

Get the one in the best condition that you can find, and that makes you feel good when you're on it.
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:09   #15
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Re: Opinions sought on newish old vs. older boat purchase

In my opinion there is really no way you'll know about the condition of anything that you cannot see in a boat. It doesn't matter what age it is.

Your best bet is to get a reputable marine surveyor to survey whatever boat you feel the most comfortable with. Have an engine surveyor look at the engine too.

Rather than age as a factor I'd go with condition and care by the owner. I would not rule out 60s and 70s boats unless your lender won't finance them or your insurer won't insure them.
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