Older vs Newer Boat for Future Cruising

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I have been on a Bennie. They are horribly ugly and I felt like trash after I was on one. Also those plastic cats I see all the time. More important...all of my sailor friends hate them as much as I do.

I cannot imagine a Bennie owner even contemplating putting in a composting toilet or going to a consignment shop. I suppose they also have maids to clean their interiors. Then again, I don't hang around Bennie owners at all. Even when I was race crewing.

As I said, if I wanted to go fast I would get a 40' tri and do 18 kts in 20 kts of wind. Well, when I was on one we hit 18 but I have no idea what the wind speed was. It was terror and a fun ride. However, I could not figure out how to steer the damn thing.

If I wanted a mono hull for racing of that sort I'd get something along the lines of a Togo II shape but larger - you know...twin fin rudder...they are not sailing boats they are surf boards.

Good luck in a GALE. Ok i said it. not a measly 45. anything sails well in 45.

Have you ever been on a tri?

I think you have been on that island too long and need a real sail...

PS whats your Moody like?

Well, where to start with all of this.

First of all, 45 is a gale. Technically, a strong gale (Beaufort Force 9). That is serious wind. I have been out in my Moody in a Force 10, with gusts of about 55 knots, and that's the strongest wind I have ever seen in a few decades of sailing. A good Bene can handle any conditions you are likely to encounter.

Secondly, speed is not about racing. For a cruiser it's about making miles, and making them in light wind and upwind when necessary. That means, in practical terms, that you can keep sailing when the Contessa drivers have fired up the iron jenny. Multihulls appeal to some people and don't to others. They don't appeal to me. They are somewhat faster (on average) off the wind, but don't go to weather like a good monohull, and are scary in big seas. They don't sink (so their proponents say), but you can flip them over.

I do agree that the "plastickiness" of catamarans is a turn off. This aspect of Beneteaus also does not please me. If you want to avoid that aesthetic disadvantage without compromising sailing performance, then be prepared to fork over the money for something non-production.

My Moody? Well, I bought her on the rebound after failing to close the deal on my dream boat, an Oyster 485. I didn't like her too much at first. She seemed like a bit of a gin palace after the exquisite Oyster, with her low freeboard, gentle spring in her sheer, and altogether gorgeous lines. But the Oyster (as I discovered in the process of surveying) was knackered, run hard a few times across the Atlantic and put up wet (she had been owned and skippered by the owner of England's America's Cup team), hatches left open in the rain, generally abused and neglected. The Moody, on the other hand, had never been out of sight of land, and had been run by a gentle, skillful skipper who maybe was not the keenest sailor in the world, but who never damaged her in the slighest way, and catered to her every whim. The exact opposite of the Oyster's previous owner.

With time I gradually appreciated that she sails much better than the Oyster (she has a much better rig; a stately, very tall 3-spreader Selden mast, cutter rigged, with running backstays, 8 cockpit winches, everything elegantly led to the cockpit), that she is beautifully made, and intelligently designed (it's a Bill Dixon design, so I'm not sure why I was surprised). The cabinetry, for example, is absolutely gorgeous, acres of precisely fitted oiled teak (no plastic in sight!), and I am still trying to understand in what way it is lighter or cheaper than the Oyster's, although my surveyor warned me about it. Her hull, Kevlar from the keel forward, is like the Brooklyn Bridge, with nary a flex or a creak in the most vicious seas.

She is still bigger than what I wanted, and the 485 would have been just right. But size adds seaworthiness and comfort and so, well, you know, you learn to live with it. The seaworthiness is in a different universe than anything I have sailed before; she laughs at 50 knot winds, hardly even heeling, with her yankee furled and sailing under self-tacking staysail and deeply reefed main alone. The hull is so easily driven that I can short-tack her without losing so much as a knot of speed -- she makes her skipper look like Dennis Conner, even if he is more like Gomer Pyle at heart.

So if you are trying to fit Moodys into your hierarchy of boats -- most English sailors consider them a cut below HR's, Najads, Oysters, Swans, and Contest, but a cut or two above everything else. I guess that's about right. I like mine very much and have stopped thinking about the lost Oyster. The Moody 49, designed later than the 54, is an even better choice, refined, improved and just slightly scaled down -- basically just a tighter, better fitted-together package -- but for some reason very expensive, more than the 54's. None of these are made any more; the Moody yard was bankrupted and closed down a few years ago, after almost 200 years in business, and sold to Hanse, which continues the name, but they are different boats.

Here she is lying to her anchor ten days ago:

[SaltyMonkey]

Ignorance is it?

Lets see

I have been on 3 bennies sailing for that matter, and have walked through many more at boat shows through the years. They are fast but they are not very stable and some have sacrificed stability for living space.

I formally studied yacht design in undergrad, do my research and have an engineering and science background. Damn...I wish there were jobs.

I have 43 years of sailing experience sailing everything from ocean racers to little pocket sailers - either fast technical racing or cruising.

Ignorance of what exactly??

Bennies suck. I dont hate you guys for sailing and having your dream. I hate your sucky boats. I think you are the ones who are probably ignorant of it. When the storm blows over 60 or 70, turn up your stereo of denial and say "lalalala bennies are great lalalala". SaltyMonkey doesn't care. Sail your bennies in the carib with your stereos and your friends from NYC and your microwaves. SaltyMonkey doesnt care. He just thinks there are better boats out there that are better water sailing">blue water sailing boats that are NEW 2010 models - even some light weight cats. He also believes there are great boats out there that are dreams and are USED.

Let the buyer compare...but compare with some logic that is appropriate.

[Doodles]

Not a production Bennie I know, but I still love it ....

YouTube - Rough Weather - Corentin Douguet Sailing crazy Figaro

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Let the buyer compare...but compare with some logic that is appropriate.

And they have compared, and Beneteau Is the Number 1 boat sold in the World. has more models sailing the oceans than any other boat.. Dominates the charter industry, and produces one of the fastest production models on the market, The FIRST SERIES..

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, where to start with all of this.

First of all, 45 is a gale.

Yes Dockhead, I was incorrect. I was mixing my statue and knots as I'm just a wee bit tired today from typing here and jugging some day work to help pay for my next....no not a bennie...almost had me. Its is a strong gale and not a whole gale. I was thinking it was a fresh gale of force 8.

But its not the winds. Its the waves. A boat should not technically breech in windspeed alone. A boat will technically broach in breaking waves. and then its a matter of righting. And there I don't believe the bennie will serve well.

Im surprised you say they are good light wind sailers. My experience, as short as it was proved about "average" to "low". Then again, they were more a party cruise experiences so maybe some other day...These experiences were 10-13 years ago.

I've heard nothing but great things about Moodys. I have never been on one though I confess. They are top notch boats. Oyster the same. I was curious you would give up all that great sailing boat for a Bennie? Its sounds insane to me. What you described to me sounds like the perfect cruiser.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

And they have compared, and Beneteaue Is the Number 1 boat sold in the World. has more models sailing the oceans than any other boat.. Dominates the charter industry, and produces one of the fastest production models on the market, The FIRST SERIES..

Oh yes...lets go get a Hunter too. They are great sellers...

While were at it I'll pick you up a McDonalds fun meal...after all they are the most selling food in the world

I hardly consider the charter industry as the barometer for "good boat design" just as I don't consider bumper cars in carnivals as a barometer for automobile safety.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Yes Dockhead, I was incorrect. I was mixing my statue and knots as I'm just a wee bit tired today from typing here and jugging some day work to help pay for my next....no not a bennie...almost had me. Its is a strong gale and not a whole gale. I was thinking it was a fresh gale of force 8.

But its not the winds. Its the waves. A boat should not technically breech in windspeed alone. A boat will technically broach in breaking waves. and then its a matter of righting. And there I don't believe the bennie will serve well.

Im surprised you say they are good light wind sailers. My experience, as short as it was proved about "average" to "low". Then again, they were more a party cruise experiences so maybe some other day...These experiences were 10-13 years ago.

I've heard nothing but great things about Moodys. I have never been on one though I confess. They are top notch boats. Oyster the same. I was curious you would give up all that great sailing boat for a Bennie? Its sounds insane to me. What you described to me sounds like the perfect cruiser.

Well, I didn't propose giving the Moody up for a Bene. Through pure luck in business I woke up one day and was able to afford the 300% difference in price. If I had had slightly less luck in business, however, I would prefer a Bene to a slow, poor-sailing older boat, but this is a rather different question than the one posed.

Benes are very good upwind and in light wind because they have very efficient hulls. They go further than I would like in the performance versus seaworthiness balance, at least the latest ones -- the very flat bow sections tend to pound a bit, and yes, you have a bit less directional stability because of the very high aspect keels and flat, wide stern sections. They are too lightly built and have too small tankage for my taste. But they are good boats with a lot of engineering invested into them (the huge production numbers justify a huge R&D expense). It's not for nothing that they sell so well, and you don't do them justice, although I appreciate you may be just having fun at the expense of the Bene drivers on here, yanking their chains.

Another thing not to lose sight of is that all this masturbation over boats kind of takes us away from sailing -- the hand on the tiller is more important than the rudder mechanism itself, let's say. We all sail what we have, and in one way or another it's always good enough for the job, whatever it is. I waste time blathering on this site only when I am unable to be on the water. Who cares about underbody sections when you're actually hard on the wind somewhere, trying to find the right place for the next tack.

[SaltyMonkey]

Ok...look

If I wasn't planning on sailing in bad areas....if i didn't need a blue water cruiser that could sail in anything, but more an island sailor...or even a med sailer...if I grew up learning sailing in the bare bones industry...and that was how I learned to sail...and thats all i desired and thought sailing was...going from one sandy cay to another for my drinks...and I wanted to retain my party time and my microwave life in that slow comfort of warm climates...I too would probably gravitate to a Bennie, a Moorings or something along those lines. And I believe most sailers are like what I described. That's fine. No problem. Its a boat. It has a purpose...I just think its a limited purpose. Bennies sell alot for those reasons because most people desire that kind of experience and life at any age - either for a long cruise or for a very limited vacation one in mid lats charter. They also sell because there are not that many boats in the world made these days that are affordable to some degree. But I just hate to hear this pontification selling them as R+D jesus boats that can solve all blue water sailing needs. Sorry, you know the reasoning. And I really do see a lot of used boats out there that are affordable that are great blue water boats 38-40+ ft. Not in my price range, but most of them are a step up and I think there are some great deals in that bracket - well maintained; well outfitted - boats that are affordable for those retired couples that are looking to go.

I'd hate for those opportunities to be missed just on the whim of thinking that new boats are the only boat to look at for the future requirement. You open yourself to getting a really good boat for a lot less. Pay for 4 boats or pay for 1 boat?

Anyway onward...

[sailorboy1]

Is this about getting an older or newer boat anymore? Or is this a "measurement" type thing now?

[SaltyMonkey]

Funny Don!

Ok, I went to Bennie web site...took a virtual tour of the FIRST SERIES 35 since this is the range im looking for. Threw away my number sheets - we already know those answers and stepped right into my brand spanking new boat to take a look. Lovely headliners. I'm already going nuts ripping them out. The hatch looks too low to the cockpit. Ooops. Started glassing that in right away. That keel and fin rudder look like whale bait. I am not sure about that wheel steering. I feel like I am in a casino. OK, the open cockpit might provide some good drainage, but I fear I am going down it in a hurry. Where do I exactly stick my wind vane? Im guessing some sort of radar arch for my panels and wind charger? What do I grab on to in the cabin? Where do I put supplies exactly? I feel like i am on an AMTRAK train. The chart table might be ok, but I prefer it slanted and not look so much like an IKIA computer hutch. Where does an inner forestay go exactly? Do I need one? How do I get to the side of the hull exactly if there is a collision? Ok it has a traveler in the cockpit just for me. Lovely...inner halyards just what I absolutely dont want under any condition. Is that inboom or mast reefing? god i hope not...and so on

yes I can see the transat and vendee influences which are fun, but its just not enough for moi bon appetit

[GeoPowers]

Here that sucking sound guys? That's your brain cells departing by participating in this conversation. Who's that under the bridge??

--adds to "ignore list" (my first!)--

[SaltyMonkey]

yeah, geopower is right (happy caching geo byebye you're my first too!). I'll step away from the bennie argument and let you all get back to the real conversation topic here.

[CarlF]

Watch out for the "disposable boat". This is a boat that was built to the lowest price that will provide good service for five years with a first owner (often in charter) and then fetch a reasonable price (and pass survey) to the second owner. The first owner (who likes buying new boats) then buys another new boat from the builder. Not a bad business model.

Disposable boats were rare before the early '90's but they are now the great majority of boats. As Curmudgeon suggests, there are a few easy telltales -

1. Thin veneer joinery. A good looking interior needs to be refinished every 10 years. If you sand through the veneer what do you do?

2. Interiors that are glued not screwed. Hinckley interiors are held together with screws. Everything comes apart for access to systems (although most screws are artfully hidden or bunged. If visible, the screw head slots are lined up)

3. Unremovable engines or tanks. When these have to be replaced, do you use a chainsaw?

The question is when the cost of repair exceeds the value. This depends upon the original build quality and the maintainability of the construction. A 30 year old boat that was built to be repaired can have 30 more years in her while a 10 year old "disposable" boat may be ready for the bone yard.

Carl

[Curmudgeon]

Buy this instead of a Bene:

1970 Tartan 34C Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

It looks better, sails almost as well. With boats like this on the market, there is zero reason to buy a newer boat unless you are so rich that money does not matter to you.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Buy this instead of a Bene:

1970 Tartan 34C Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

It looks better, sails almost as well. With boats like this on the market, there is zero reason to buy a newer boat unless you are so rich that money does not matter to you.

Sorry, but I just don't see it. That boat is 40 years old and overpriced at that! We just sold our 1983 Niagara 31 for about that price, and although I haven't actually seen this boat, from the pictures ours was a much better deal and 13 years younger. Nothing wrong with the boat per se, but it is 40 years old and at that price I'm sure you can do better. In the past three years we've bought two used boats, and I agree there is no reason to buy a new boat with the inventory of used to choose from and they are so much cheaper.

As for looks, well it looks like a 40 year old boat and if you like that look o.k.. I just like something a little more modern.