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SaucySailoress · 18-06-2010, 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Thats what it is designed to do. The crumpling protects the folks inside

Mark

Duh!!!! I know that - but the point is, older/stronger cars/boats DON'T crumple, and therefore last longer!!!! I want a strong boat that will survive the bumps.

Get-a-Life · 18-06-2010, 05:15

Duhhh! The fact that they don't flex could be a double edged sword. No flex means that the full impact of the wave/sea conditions is transmitted into the hull and fittings.

Ever heard of stress fractures?

osirissail · 18-06-2010, 06:20

I think you can wander this way and that all over the spectrum when discussing whether old or new makes any difference in boat choice. In order to add any validity you need to equate all other factors such as hull(s) form; accommodations; sail plans; etc. etc. When all or at least most all of the other considerations are made reasonably equal then New vs. Old gets down to cost of maintenance. New is usually under warranty and new (under 10 years) generally means minimal major system repairs/replacements. Old - over ten years opens up the problems of major systems replacements especially in used boats which are being sold to avoid such costs. Older being 20 + years fall into two categories, those well maintained that the owner is selling due to new or other interests taking priority over boating and Older boats where it is just too much trouble and cost to maintain. Oldest - say 30+ years is where you get "classics" and boats where the vessel has outlived the owner (estate sales).
- - So I contend that all other things being equal New is best; Older, if maintained/renewed is Good; and Oldest is where the "gems" and classic beauties are found.

SaltyMonkey · 18-06-2010, 07:51

I'm flipping. I'm going with the new camp IF you have the money

Ken on Satori · 18-06-2010, 11:19

End of the day, JUST GO! Both will do the job so who cares. Just get something and go before you find yourself in a box and cannot go. Now that will kill your soul. Ken (ask me how I know if you want)

David_Old_Jersey · 18-06-2010, 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - So I contend that all other things being equal New is best; Older, if maintained/renewed is Good; and Oldest is where the "gems" and classic beauties are found.

Brand Spanking New means you have snagging to contend with. Even if covered by warranties..........and of course some firms better able / willing to deal with "after (cheque cashed) care" than others..........and then immediate depreciation.

Newer means you have a PO (or several?) to contend with. Some of which will be more knowledgable / able / solvent / caring than others..........perfectly possible to create a need for a major refit within a few short years from using the power of wishful thinking

. coupled with selling

.........and you could end up paying nearly new price for the opportunity to pay for someone else's deferred maintanence.

Older means you (likely?!

) have a deluded seller to deal with. Convinced that his "refurbishment" has added value and that his maintanence has always been top class (my solutions are "innovative" - yours are "bodges"

) leading to his conclusion that despite being due for a major refit (aka slight TLC required

) and his mod cons dating from 1972 (apart from those fitted in 1983) that the vessel is rightly highly valuable in £££ terms (hell, you could buy a new Beneteau for that - but it wouldn't be a proper boat

). The good news is that will hold her value well, as proven by being "offered"

for sale for over 12 months..........and will require a new owner to take out a second mortgage (and sell a kidney) to refurb. As well as a longggggg weekend to do the work

Old (and cheap) means............it's f#cked

Bill Gates couldn't afford the refurb. DIY? only if you plan on living to 108

**Adelie** · 18-06-2010, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Get-a-Life

Duhhh! The fact that they don't flex could be a double edged sword. No flex means that the full impact of the wave/sea conditions is transmitted into the hull and fittings.

Ever heard of stress fractures?

For a given inanimate material, the more a piece flexes the greater the stress (engineering definition), the more the stress the more it fatigues. Fatigue life is the limiting factor for items under normal service conditions. In abnormal transient conditions with very high loads only rarely experienced, gross strength is more important than fatigue life so something that flexes more may resist the load as well as something stiffer.

An overly ballasted boat that is 'stiffer' (nautical definition) will experience higher peak loads in the rigging during puffs because less of the wind's momentum is being converted into heeling than a more 'tender' boat. Thus the rigging in a 'stiffer' boat will see more fatigue for the same conditions and will have a shortened fatigue life unless the rigging is upsized to compensate.

In the gross case of the boat as a whole 'stiffer' is not better for longevity.
In the specific case of materials in a boat, 'stiffer' is better.

In animate materials such as bones, tendons, connecting tissue and muscles, more and repeated load will induce those materials to grow and strengthen in response provided the load is not so great as to break the material before the growth response kicks in.

**Adelie** · 18-06-2010, 15:33

Basically DOJ is saying you are screwwed whatever you do

, it's just a matter of what position you prefer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Brand Spanking New means you have snagging to contend with. Even if covered by warranties..........and of course some firms better able / willing to deal with "after (cheque cashed) care" than others..........and then immediate depreciation.

Newer means you have a PO (or several?) to contend with. Some of which will be more knowledgable / able / solvent / caring than others..........perfectly possible to create a need for a major refit within a few short years from using the power of wishful thinking

. coupled with selling

.........and you could end up paying nearly new price for the opportunity to pay for someone else's deferred maintanence.

Older means you (likely?!

) have a deluded seller to deal with. Convinced that his "refurbishment" has added value and that his maintanence has always been top class (my solutions are "innovative" - yours are "bodges"

) leading to his conclusion that despite being due for a major refit (aka slight TLC required

) and his mod cons dating from 1972 (apart from those fitted in 1983) that the vessel is rightly highly valuable in £££ terms (hell, you could buy a new Beneteau for that - but it wouldn't be a proper boat

). The good news is that will hold her value well, as proven by being "offered"

for sale for over 12 months..........and will require a new owner to take out a second mortgage (and sell a kidney) to refurb. As well as a longggggg weekend to do the work

Old (and cheap) means............it's f#cked

Bill Gates couldn't afford the refurb. DIY? only if you plan on living to 108

Gaylord · 18-06-2010, 15:40

We are in a boat search currently. New to sailing and planning to live aboard. A host of additional concerns arise. Solution? We have not found one yet. But the more boats we walk on the more defined our needs become. Several people and brokers are assisting us. Some are in it for the money, some have been there and really want to help whether there is a sale in it or not.

How can I tell the difference...I have been in all the positions before. I could get it wrong. But like someone else said the goal is to go.

SaltyMonkey · 18-06-2010, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adelie

Basically DOJ is saying you are screwwed whatever you do

, it's just a matter of what position you prefer.

ROFL! Agreed!

SaucySailoress · 19-06-2010, 02:51

OK, here's one for the confessional, probably; and I just know I'm opening myself up for a blasting here....

Coming into the marina on our sturdy, over-engineered with thick fibre glass 1982 boat. Heavy swell on the beam. Little wind, and on the nose. Engine fails right in the mouth of the harbour. Sails straight out, but ineffective. Swell pushing us sideways into seawall So, try spinning boat. Wind takes us round, but not tightly enough. Bow hits seawall anyway. Push off (using wind in genny to take us back out) after a few more bashes. Back out to sea. Sail until wind picks up again. Sail into marina and berth. SCUBA gear out, hull inspection, barely a scratch.

And that's why I like our strong, overengineered old boat. Because the new racing boat of our small fleet would have sure been holed if that happened to them. I'd like to say their newer engine probably wouldn't fail - not true, we've towed them in a few times.....

Right then, hit me.....