Older vs Newer Boat for Future Cruising

[Boracay]

Originally Posted by Hornloaded

I am currently completing the sale of my 31'Beneteau. Our plan is to buy a 43'-47' boat for coastal cruising in about 10 years (my retirement). Our budget is 100K - 200K.

My choices are to buy an 80's cruising boat (1983 C&C Landfall cc) and refurbish it or buy a MUCH newer Beneteau (42 cc 2004) that is fully equipped and just finished doing the exact cruising im interested in and keep it maintained for our futuer cruise.

I figure I will spend 200K with either boat.

I was talking to the surveyor at my haul out yesterday and his advise was to buy the newest boat I can afford.

Any opinions?

Originally Posted by Hornloaded

In my quest for my new boat I have considered the Catalina/Morgan 45 CC. We realy like the size and the layout.

Giver the specification that the boat is not going to be cruised for 10 years it might be nicer to buy a '90s boat now, with a plan to upgrade in 10 years.

A cared for 20 year old boat may be fine, a 30 year old one not as much, a 30++ year old that's been trashed cruising is gunna cause problems.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by osirissail

Lets see the OP asked for opinions about which is better - the newest possible boat or a much older boat. The professional advice was to go with the newest possible which includes up to a brand new boat is it fits the budget.

So I am sending my opinion to the OP - that he should go with his surveyor's advice and go as new as possible. Actually being out here cruising for 19 years and also working on cruiser's boat, my real life experience is that folks are a lot happier with the newest boat they can afford versus an older boat. That's the real world.

Agree 100%
we bought used and only because wanted the style built in that era and planned to re-fit to new standards.. the idea of re-selling the boat in 10 years was not a concideration.. we wanted a FIRST42 and that was our decision..
so 7 years ago we plunked down 100k for a boat going on 20 years old and then added another 75k for the first retro-fit.. one year later another 60k, and just recently another 30k..and I'm doing all the work myself..
so over the last 7 years we've spent just over 250K on a boat than is now worth, maybe 80k..
If we were to buy new, it would only be 7 years old and the return would be much more.......
But we're the execption as I said, we wanted a First 42 and have been happily cruising for 7 years...
My openion, buy as new as you can..

[SaltyMonkey]

Yes, that's fine. And my experience in living aboard a boat and being around sailors who are cruising full time is that most people I know have older ones...that they are paid off, and that they have generally owned and lived on MANY older boats in their lifetime - sometimes they buy and trade depending on which cruising ground they are headed. They are resourceful, buy used equipment when things are needed, they have pruned down to simple systems, and don't worry so much.

Just remember we're talking 10 years time and we're talking about one professional's opinion. I didn't even think about the opportunity lost from all that cash that was poured into interest payments. I assumed they were paying cash...like I would.

Actually, if you think about it they are paying for four boats over the 10 years and into their cruise:

1 new one
1 aging one over time + depreciation $
1 refit and outfitting for the cruise itself
...and another one that the loan interest might have paid for.

I'd never buy a new boat unless I could pay it all off at once with cash and be ready to go in 1 year.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - I hate to bust anybody's bubble but full time cruising is NOT fun. It is a lot of work and a lot of frustration....
The older the boat the more hassles ...
- - The only way to minimize the grief ... to buy as new a boat as possible - preferably a reputable brand new boat.

Yep. he's spot on.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by osirissail
- - I hate to bust anybody's bubble but full time cruising is NOT fun. It is a lot of work and a lot of frustration....


Damn... been cruising for 24 years full time and I THOUGHT I was having fun... WTF???

I must be really screwed up, because our previous boat was purchased at age 10, sold at age 30, new boat purchased at age 13, now 20 and going strong. And I still think I'm having fun. Sure, I've had to do maintenance, but if you don't do maintenance on your fancy NEW boat, it will soon become a shabby used boat.

For me, new ain't the issue, it is build quality and previous maintenance before purchase. And by the way, have you noticed that new boats are empty?? It takes lots of boat units to fill them up...

Different strokes and all that...

Cheers,
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Newcastle, NSW, Oz, Northbound at last

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I must be really screwed up, because our previous boat was purchased at age 10, sold at age 30, new boat purchased at age 13, now 20 and going strong.

Yes Jim thats the go!!!!

Buy at 10 years old... don't buy at 30 years old, thats what we are saying.

I saw an ad on Yachtworld I was going to post. I put in US$200,000 swan and then same with Beneteau.

Now guess what? You can buy a 1971 45 foot Swan for $200k or a near new Bene 46.

So if someone boaght the 1971 better brand boat to cruise for 10 years they could have a decade of problems.

But there is a stack of Beneteau 473 2002 to 2004 fully speced for the same price or cheaper.


What would you buy?




Mark

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Yes Jim thats the go!!!!

Buy at 10 years old... don't buy at 30 years old, thats what we are saying.

I saw an ad on Yachtworld I was going to post. I put in US$200,000 swan and then same with Beneteau.

Now guess what? You can buy a 1971 45 foot Swan for $200k or a near new Bene 46.

So if someone boaght the 1971 better brand boat to cruise for 10 years they could have a decade of problems.

But there is a stack of Beneteau 473 2002 to 2004 fully speced for the same price or cheaper.

What would you buy?






Mark

Absolutely logical.

I would add to that the following:

Sailing is a lot more fun if (a) you can make miles to your destination, and if (b) you can make miles upwind, under sail.

The other problem with older generations of boats, particularly, older boats with pre-modern keels and underbodies, is that they are slower, and will not go to weather nearly as well as more modern ones.

It takes a lot of joy out of cruising, to be forced to use your motor all the time, because your boat won't go to weather.

So like Mark I would much rather have a modern production boat which is not, maybe, so aesthetically wonderful, or such beautiful quality, but which SAILS, which can pick up its skirts and go, than a pretty older boat which is a tub to sail.

I've had both so I know what I'm talking about.

This is a completely separate issue, from the maintenance and repair issues.

The 1971 Swan 45 (probably Mark's talking about the 44) is a bad example -- a high-strung racing boat with tremendous performance even compared to morden boats. More normal cruising boats of the era with long fin keels or full keels were absolute tubs compared to modern boats.


Of course if you can afford it, buy a modern design boat which is not a cheap production boat. But that was not the question posed.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - I hate to bust anybody's bubble but... [the]older the boat the more hassles and time you have to spend hanging upside down in the bilge changing out worn out or defective pumps, filters, and other hundreds of assorted items...

I certainly agree the potential is there, but if one’s cruising time is spent “upside-down” in the bilge, then either the vessel has met with some unforeseen catastrophe or it wasn’t properly prepared (or maintained) to begin with – regardless of age. If the skipper knows the boat well, not just the brochure or the owner’s manual, then little should be a mystery and as a consequence most of these mechanical misadventures occur infrequently, if at all.

Don’t misunderstand me, what you say can be true an embarrassing amount of the time – I’ve been aboard older boats maintained by the mechanically inept (and untrainable) and it is often one misadventure after another, but new boats won’t save these folks either – it just forestalls the inevitable until the skipper and their hapless passengers are farther from home. The USN, USCG and many commercial mariners/watermen put to sea in vessels often at least a quarter century old and they do quite well (largely a product of knowledgeable folks following a planned and deliberate maintenance schedule) and there is no reason for the recreational sailor with our (often) less complex craft to have a lesser standard when it comes to boat familiarity and upkeep. There is nothing like a new boat to be sure and I've had both new and old, but misfortunes do happen regardless and even in older boats mechanical misadventures should be the exception, not the rule.

[SaltyMonkey]

Jims right. 10 years or 20. Doesn't matter. It's the quality of the boat when you are ready to go that counts. And the money you have for cruising.

Swan or Bennie? I'd take the swan any day. Bennies just suck. oh...hi there Mark....=O

Get an older boat
10+ years when its depreciated
best quality you can afford
take 2 years to find it
pay cash in full

or do what others do...

go through strings of used boats every 1-2 years. Sail and live on lots of different ones depending on what you want to do and where you want to go. Realize todays boat you think or may need may not be the one you need for tomorrow's plans.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Jims right. 10 years or 20. Doesn't matter. It's the quality of the boat when you are ready to go that counts. And the money you have for cruising.

Swan or Bennie? I'd take the swan any day. Bennies just suck. oh...hi there Mark....=O

Get an older boat
10+ years when its depreciated
best quality you can afford
take 2 years to find it
pay cash in full

or do what others do...

go through strings of used boats every 1-2 years. Sail and live on lots of different ones depending on what you want to do and where you want to go. Realize todays boat you think or may need may not be the one you need for tomorrow's plans.

I can't agree that 10 and 20 years old is no difference. First of all, it's a big difference in design evolution. Swan is a bad example because their underbodies even 30 years ago are like modern boats are now. But 20 years ago few boats were designed to sail as well as most boats sail now. The revolution took place in the 1990's, so a 10 year old boat is much more likely to be a good sailing one, than a 20 year old one.

Also remember that every boat is a vast collection of parts and systems that slowly (or quickly) deteriorate and/or become obsolete, and whatever work you do on a boat once you buy it is basically money flushed down the toilet (except in terms of your own enjoyment, but financially speaking anyway). A good percentage of the value content of a good quality boat still has 10 years of useful life left in it, at 10 years of age. A good quality new boat can survive 10 years without intense investment, and 10 years of age is not to late to start an intense maintenance program. But 20 years of age is too late -- a boat will be worthless at 20 years if it has not had a major refit or refits and intense maintenance, maintenance increasing significantly with every year after Year 10.

It is hard to find used boats which have had as much maintenance, upgrading and refitting they really needed, and the older the boat the less likely that becomes. That is because the ratio between the initial cost of aquisition and the annual cost of doing the correct amount of maintenance/upgrading/refitting ("MUR") changes radically over the life of a boat, and 99% of people who buy 10 year old boats instead of new, do so because that's all they can afford, and they really can't afford to do the amount MUR which is really needed. To add gasoline to that fire -- the owner of a 10-year old boat has no financial incentive to pour thousands every year into his boat since he will never recover the expense, so he has a strong financial incentive to just let it deteriorate. So when they sell the boat five or ten years later, as a 15- or 20-year old boat, it's basically knackered, and hardly worth messing with.

So those are two powerful reasons to avoid boats more than 10 years old.

A big exception is the case of that rare seller who actually understood -- and budgeted for -- the fact that his 10-year old boat needs 10 times as much annual expense as the same boat needed new. So when he sells it on 10 years later as a 20 year old boat, he has by that time systematically renewed every system and component. He is selling at a big loss because the market does not reward this behavior. Buying such a boat, however, makes you the beneficiary of this fact of the market. But it is really hard to find boats like that. And you are still unlikely to get the benefit of a modern underbody design.

Other than that, Salty's theses are pretty good. Pay cash, for damn sure, especially if the boat is 10 years old or more. That is so you can spend what you would have been spending on payments, on MUR. You'll find that's too little, but at least you're not starting behind the game.

I also agree with Salty that it is stupid to change boats every couple of years like some people do. You can hardly get a boat commissioned in less than a year, whether it is new or used. Then it takes another year or three to get it more or less like you like it. So when you are going to even enjoy it, if you sell it after less than 10 years or so? Since you will never get back the cost of any upgrades or improvements, you need to keep a boat for 10 years or more, in order to at least enjoy the benefit of the money you spend on the boat.


Beneteaus do not "suck". They are excellent boats for their intended purpose. They will not take the miles or last the decades of a better, non-production boat. But they sail excellently, and will sail rings around many posher boats. They are superb value for the money. I am glad I was able to afford something better than a Bene, but that was just a matter of luck. I would not have hesitated to buy a Bene if my budget had been a couple hundred grand less, and like Mark, would certainly have preferred this option over an older, better quality but deteriorating, poor-sailing boat.

[SaltyMonkey]

"The revolution took place in the 1990's, so a 10 year old boat is much more likely to be a good sailing one, than a 20 year old one."

umm thats pure spec. Pick your model whatever the age. Do your homework. Plus a great sailer may be sh*** in a storm. A boat is a boat. A bristol boat 20 years old sailed locally is almost as good today as yester.

20 years is not too late.

Here is what I see as a story...and I've looked at TONS of models and listings.

Boat is purchased by said couple looking to sail away in 10 years. They sail it around. Plans change or they get bored. They are lazy. They do NOT keep the boat. Once it gets to a level of repair they sell. Maybe they want a catamaran afterall.

Another owner pick its up. They are usually experienced. They have hands on skills and have been through a few boats. They sail it a bit, maybe cruise. Work out the kinks. Upgrade and tune it. The boat looks great and is almost bristol. They sell. They did their tour and they want to trade up or get a different model for another kind of sailing plan. Maybe the boat they are selling is good for the carib, but now they want higher lats sailing and north atlantic or PNW. They want a motor sailer....or maybe at their age they want a trawler.

third owner picks it up...medium experience...usually not very great. They sail it locally. Have some fantasy plan or another. Sell it in 3-5 years. Some systems become deteriorated or they put in some crappy custom bulkhead.

You look at boat. Hull is fine but new sails needed. Or new rigging / new sails, but old electronics or new engine needed. Usually its a scoring factor - out of major systems 1 or 2 are bad. Rest have been maintained bristol by previous owners. You survey. You negotiate on those points. You buy.

Once you buy you fix it up. Re-core a part of the deck maybe. Rerig maybe. Dump that stupid alcohol stove maybe. Leave the blisters since they are stable at this point. But you have a boat.

Maintenance doesnt increase. It becomes steady state. You dont need to spend oodles of money on it to bring it to NEW status. You just need to make it good enough for what you want to do with it. If you buy a select model, they retain their value pretty much when you do want to sell.

I don't understand this consumer mentality that buying a boat is turn key and ready. I've never had to spend oodles of money and time on boat maintenance and all my boats have been over 20 years old. I don't think there is a cutoff. I love older boats. "the benefit of a modern underbody design" WTF?

If I wanted a fast racer/cruiser, and I was headed to warmer waters, I would buy a cat or tri anyway. NEVER a bennie. They DO suck.

BTW people switching boats DO commission them quickly. 1 month they are on their way, and they fix em on the go. They take their gear from one boat to another. I guess they are more adaptable than Bennie people and need less. They are not rich coonsumer retiree 401k people. They are "sensible cruiser" types who frugally sail, now how to fix anything with an old bedspring, and seem to be extremely happy doing it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

"The revolution took place in the 1990's, so a 10 year old boat is much more likely to be a good sailing one, than a 20 year old one."

umm thats pure spec. Pick your model whatever the age. Do your homework. Plus a great sailer may be sh*** in a storm. A boat is a boat. A bristol boat 20 years old sailed locally is almost as good today as yester.

20 years is not too late.

Here is what I see as a story...and I've looked at TONS of models and listings.

Boat is purchased by said couple looking to sail away in 10 years. They sail it around. Plans change or they get bored. They are lazy. They do NOT keep the boat. Once it gets to a level of repair they sell. Maybe they want a catamaran afterall.

Another owner pick its up. They are usually experienced. They have hands on skills and have been through a few boats. They sail it a bit, maybe cruise. Work out the kinks. Upgrade and tune it. The boat looks great and is almost bristol. They sell. They did their tour and they want to trade up or get a different model for another kind of sailing plan. Maybe the boat they are selling is good for the carib, but now they want higher lats sailing and north atlantic or PNW. They want a motor sailer....or maybe at their age they want a trawler.

third owner picks it up...medium experience...usually not very great. They sail it locally. Have some fantasy plan or another. Sell it in 3-5 years. Some systems become deteriorated or they put in some crappy custom bulkhead.

You look at boat. Hull is fine but new sails needed. Or new rigging / new sails, but old electronics or new engine needed. Usually its a scoring factor - out of major systems 1 or 2 are bad. Rest have been maintained bristol by previous owners. You survey. You negotiate on those points. You buy.

Once you buy you fix it up. Re-core a part of the deck maybe. Rerig maybe. Dump that stupid alcohol stove maybe. Leave the blisters since they are stable at this point. But you have a boat.

Maintenance doesnt increase. It becomes steady state. You dont need to spend oodles of money on it to bring it to NEW status. You just need to make it good enough for what you want to do with it. If you buy a select model, they retain their value pretty much when you do want to sell.

I don't understand this consumer mentality that buying a boat is turn key and ready. I've never had to spend oodles of money and time on boat maintenance and all my boats have been over 20 years old. I don't think there is a cutoff. I love older boats. "the benefit of a modern underbody design" WTF?

If I wanted a fast racer/cruiser, and I was headed to warmer waters, I would buy a cat or tri anyway. NEVER a bennie. They DO suck.

BTW people switching boats DO commission them quickly. 1 month they are on their way, and they fix em on the go. They take their gear from one boat to another. I guess they are more adaptable than Bennie people and need less. They are not rich coonsumer retiree 401k people. They are "sensible cruiser" types who frugally sail, now how to fix anything with an old bedspring, and seem to be extremely happy doing it.

"I don't understand this consumer mentality that buying a boat is turn key and ready. I've never had to spend oodles of money and time on boat maintenance and all my boats have been over 20 years old."

There is no such thing as a sailboat which is "turn key and ready". Does not exist. A cruising sailboat, from the day it is delivered to the first owner, is a long list of things to be fixed, improved, or upgraded. The best you can do is keep life-threatening things off the list, and try to keep the list from getting longer, fixing things as fast as new items appear. It is a ton of work and money, and more and more as time goes on. Unless you are just letting your boat slowly go to sh*t, which incidentally is the strategy of most owners of 20-year old boats.

My boat is only 10 years old, and was lightly used and taken care of with great love by the previous owner (bless his soul). Nevertheless, I spend two or three days working on her for every day of sailing, and on top of my own labor tons of hired labor. I just had a guy -- a wonderful craftsman, retired and working for a very reasonable hourly rate in cash -- spend a solid month on board working non-stop. And we have not really improved the boat; just made a good start at stabilizing her condition and making some really basic upgrades (more bilge pumps, isolation transformer, that kind of thing). A few tens of "boat bucks" have been spent this year alone on top of all the labor. That's par for the course, if you have reasonably high standards, and it gets worse as the boat gets older.


"I don't think there is a cutoff. I love older boats. 'the benefit of a modern underbody design' WTF?"


To each his own, of course. It's a matter of taste, and thank God there are people who love older sailboats. If you don't mind drifting around in light winds, or motoring anytime you have to make miles vaguely in the direction of the wind, then any old boat will do the job.

But it is an objective fact that starting around 1990 (much earlier for Swan, say), your average cruising boat started to become easier to handle, and to be faster and more weatherly. That is the direct result of progress in hydrodynamics and underbody design. Reduction of wetted surface, higher keel aspect ratios, and better understanding of underwater foils.

Now not every modern underbody is a good thing in a storm, I agree with you there. Very flat bottoms and very wide sterns (usually in combination with very long, thin keels and thin spade rudders) make for even better performance, but at the expense of seaworthiness, something I would not accept. But you find that mostly with "racer-cruisers", not straight cruising boats. For the record, I don't like spade rudders, perhaps irrationally. I require a skeg on my boats.

Remember also that boats have gotten a little bigger. If an average cruiser in the '80's was 36 feet, by the '90s it was already 42 or 45 feet. That means that your average '90's boat is doubly faster than your average '70's or '80's boat -- more waterline length plus better underbody. And the difference in size makes up for any better seaworthiness of your heavy-weight 36 footer.

I've owned both: An early '80's heavy "classic" cruiser with a long fin keel, and a modern bulb keel boat. Man, it is night and day. A total revolution. If you like to sail, that is. And not merely bob around in the ocean, waiting for a wind strong enough to get your Sherman tank of a "classic" boat moving.

Ask Mark. He's been most of the way around the world in his Beneteau.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Buy whichever one you fancy using most for the next 10 years.

As OP hasn't been logged on for a few months I wonder if he has gone off and followed my advice?


Whatever, the last couple of pages have been interesting - I still don't see any single right answer applicable to all.

A couple of "secrets" to buying an older boat:-

1) don't buy a bag of sh#t.
2) don't buy a bag of sh#t and also overpay.
3) don't buy a bag of sh#t and also overpay with a small (nonexistent?) refurb budget.

The more astute will detect a theme

Just because a boat is older don't make it good. or "a classic". But the 1 big advantage over new is............Google and 20 years (plus?) of other folks learning the shortcomings the hard way

New is very good though for easy resale within a few years (all things being equal). An older boat can be more of a marriage, a long term commitment - if for no other reason than divorce often too expensive to contemplate

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Whatever, the last couple of pages have been interesting - I still don't see any single right answer applicable to all.

There isn't any single right answer, so that's ok.

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

A couple of "secrets" to buying an older boat:-

1) don't buy a bag of sh#t.
2) don't buy a bag of sh#t and also overpay.
3) don't buy a bag of sh#t and also overpay with a small (nonexistent?) refurb budget.

LOL!! The wisest and most succinct thing said so far about buying boats. Mods, make that a sticky!!

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

NEVER a bennie. They DO suck.

Making a blanket statment like that only shows your ignorance, and while those of us are cruising around the world in our bennies, you still set there with your stack of cruising books and latest issue of lattitude 38 and wishing, dont hate us because we're doing what you dream of..