Oceanis 485 steering failure

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

well, just to swag a cost (we can quibble about every element here, but I guess it is the right ball park - these are 'retail' cost if an owner wanted to make it right - lets say 1/2 of this if Bendy did it in the factory):

#1 you need to install a better upper bearing underneath the deck. Bearing cost $820. Labor cost: 3 hours x $100/hour = $1120

#2 you need a strong shelf for to mount the autopilot - Materials: $100, Labour: 4 hours x $100 = $500

#3 you want to reinforce the tube correctly Materials $200, Labour 5 hours x $100 = $700

Total $2125 (that is not a gucci repair - you could spend a whole bunch more if you wanted to use stuff like say dragon plate )

The most expensive thing for an owner I would think is they then (probably) need a rudder with a longer stock.

Then the next question is how many other things do you want to 'fix' properly? Tab down the keel structural grid? Replace all the ball valves? etc etc? You could easily end up spending $50k making this boat 'proper' - and probably not get any of it back in resale value.

Wow, huge modification, no problems so far unless one run in a budget , but if i am the owner of one of this boats i guess the logic way for me will be, dropp the rudder , disconect , uninstall AP and all the wiring , bearing , hoses etc around the shelf and tube , grind the whole thing to bare fg, tube shelf, ply and even a perimeter around the tube hull side. Glass and reglass and more FG , shelf , tube , probably i make 3 or 4 ply partitions to glue glass in the side of the tube , the idea is to make the whole thing strong as hell,,, the top end of the tube will reworked to to acomódate the bearing without need any kind of glue , the AP bulkhead reglassed as well,,, those composite rudder posts used by Beneteau , i mean FG post, have another isues with the SS inner bearing bushings , they tend to work loose in the rudder post with time, as well the bottom bearing glued with sika or 4200, by Factory i see some of this bearings resting in the space plastic washer , glue fail...

Obviously your solution looks more promising , the only BUT could be a rudder with a longer post.. Ouch pricey...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by gjorgensen

No, mine is s simple stack up: Bottom to top,\ it's the lower bearing, the tube over the rudder post, the quadrant immediately above the tube with the autopilot directly attached to it, and then exposed rudder post up to the top bearing which is mounted through the deck. The emergency tiller installs directly into the top of the rudder post at the upper bearing. I've never measured the length between the lower and upper bearings, but in the 40.7 it's pretty substantial - 2.5-ish feet maybe? It's hard to tell once you're in there...

In terms of strengthening that tube, t's not clear to me it would help much because I'm not really sure how you make that tube strong enough to handle a top bearing failure. If the top bearing ripped out, or the rudder post broke at the top bearing, there's enough play in the bottom bearing to allow the post to swing around in a wide arc. Waves alone would thrash it around, but toss in the pilot going crazy and it would be even worse. I'd think that tube would have to be enormously strong to keep from being destroyed in that scenario. Even if you made it out of thick steel you'd have the connection to the hull skin as the weak point. I suppose with enough reinforcement it could be done, but it would really have to be completely re-engineered from what's in the boat. I'd think the lower bearing race and the tube would have to be one piece, the tube would have to be thick steel, and the tube would probably need to be braced against the bulkheads near the top for stability. You' basically engineer the system so that the rudder post breaks before the tube does.

Looking at that, it's all silly - the rudder should be engineered to be the second strongest system in the boat (after the keel) and so that in an extreme collision the rudder breaks off outside the boat long before the bearings or rudder post inside the boat are destroyed. No rudder is way better than a flooding situation. In my case, after looking at that tube and deciding it was worthless, I made a large, round, wedge shaped wooden plug that fits into the lower bearing race, which I carry in the nav station. The 40.7 lower bearing is just about at the waterline, so I figure if we lost the rudder and the tube was fractured the flooding could be slow enough to get that wedge in there. Not that I'd look forward to climbing into the back lazarette while it was flooding...

BTW, I did take a peak in the back of my boat once going upwind in a stiff breeze. My rudder post is FTP like most/all modern Beneteaus, and under load that thing does flex quite a bit, bowing between the bearings. The tube has to be wide enough to account for the arc of the rudder post under load, which appears to make it even weaker given how it's mounted.

Yes, same config as the Bene 50, no Oceanis , just the old 50, a top bearing failure is very rare unless you skip the time to change it, excessive play at the top ,, and also the post tend to broke at the bottom or so far at the midle section, but anyway i think the idea is similar, Fg and ply partitions in the sides of the tube , glassed as well, bearings in good condition and careful with those FG rudder post , they are pesky to inspect for cracks or other problems..... Cheers.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Nice to have.

Just as a note: the pumping rate numbers I was quoting were against a 7' head. I am guessing the numbers you are quoting are against a zero head. I think 6 or 7' is more realistic than 0. It makes a significant difference and is useful if you are trying to compare potential inflow rates to pumping rates.

True enough, though I have found the actual rates not all that different. I can't remember whether the flow rates were for "zero" head but I rather doubt it. Perhaps not 7' though. I am certain the generator driven pump (which I use a lot to help wash out my voluminous bilges or to clear condensation from aircon if in a marina for awhile) does at least 300L per min and I believe actually closer to its true rating, though it is slung below the genset and exhausts to an amidships cock a foot or so clear of the waterline. I haven't accurately measured the vane/trash pump, though have tested it regularly, and it would indeed be drawing on a head of around 7 to 8' with a hardwall hose and soft exhaust hose rolled over the side. It is an impessive gusher though, capable of throwing rocks, plastic and other debris out with the water, though of course there is a big mushroom strum on the inflow hose.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Uh...no. The real problem, here, is an unbelievably crappy design.

Yep. Agree. Agree with Minaret, Transmitterdan, Neilpride, Evan Starzinger, and just about anybody who has a set of eyes and even a modicum of engineering nous. The design of the rudder support structure is utter garbage. A toy. Pathetic. Actionable in fact in a boat titled "Oceanis".

As to rudder structure requirements for a proper Ocean boat, I am with Transmitterdan. Totally.

Coastal sailing in warm water within helicopter range? Ok… fine. Put to sea in a wet paper bag for all I care. Ocean sailing where you are relying on your vessel for survival, especially in high latitudes or cold water? Don't do it with a rudder structure that looks like something you and your mates would have put together over a weekend for fun, with basic tools and from stuff you got down a homeowner's hardware store.



And the litany of Beneteaus that sink merely from ordinary sailing continues. More than merely steering failures as well, a couple broke up and sank in the Pacific in the past couple years as well, and those are just ones I heard about through acquaintance. Then Blue Pearl, and the one that sank on its maiden delivery, and CR etc etc. Some benes are very good boats. Others made from little better than sticks and papier mache for crunching out a bunch of charters then disintegrating. IMHO though owned by the same outfit, Jeanneaus are far better boats, by and large, but some Benes are good too. Others… well just LOOK AT THAT RUDDER BEARING STRUCTURE!



As Neil says, my 2cents.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Beneteau send a recall to the dealers dude, why you think they made the steel plate at page 2?? RECALL...The 41, 43, 46, 48, the 50 ft....The 48 is in the recall to, search google, you are really good on this....The only folks aware of this problem is dealers and charter companys, and like you say to the extreme, there is thousands of this boats sailing out there, maybe you believe every single owner is in contact with a dealer or te be more specific Beneteau, he?
...

I got an official answer from Beneteau through Veronique Mornet, "maître d'ouvrage" for Beneteau that had sent me an email:

"On Behalf of Beneteau, we would like to reinsure your that we do not have such issues with our rudders on Oceanis 41, 43, 46, 48 & 50, and there are no recall campaign and such an option at the moment on the boats."

For an option she means this piece posted by Neil (I sent a photo to them), this one:


Obviously the Neal statements regarding not only the Oceanis 48 as all other current Oceanis models with a single rudder to be under a recall by Beneteau are false.

The photo he posted regarding a reinforcement on some rudders from Beneteau regards probably a recall made 4 years ago specifically for Oceanis 41 and 43 built between 2008 and 2010. There are information about that on the net.
RUDDER POST RECALL/MODIFICATIONS TO 40 & 43 - SeaKnots

Also obviously, having made previous recalls to beef up rudder set ups that Beneteau found that could have problems and not having any recall regarding rudders on boats built on the last 6 years that means that contrary to Neil claims Beneteau does not acknowledge that the new boats, particularly the 48, have a rudder design problem.

I am not defending here Beneteau, that I particularly don't like much as a Brand, much less that rudder design that seems inefficient to me (even if not necessarily inadequate). I am defending here the need to post accurate information and the wrongness of posting false or misleading information to reinforce one's opinion regarding something, on this case a Brand, Beneteau. I would call that slandering (posting false damaging information about a Brand).

A forum like this should be a place were cruisers could come in search of information regarding a product or a boat. How can this be of any utility if the information posted is false and therefore misleading, without other members of the forum, instead of verifying that information (that by is extent and damaging content looked highly suspicious) chose to call ridiculous to the ones that do that " you take the ridiculous positions you have taken on this matter".

Correct information has been posted on this thread submerged by false, inaccurate or vastly exaggerated information.Regarding correctness we can take for instance this sensible view on the problem (answering this question:"I find it hard to understand why they would use the complicated and ineffective mid level upper bearing".

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Because (according to bendy engineer) it both eliminates the fussy labor involved in aligning a deck mounted bearing and(or) allows for the use of a simpler and cheaper sleeve bearing. They reckon it is less expensive for them and structurally satisfactory. We can debate the second part, but I think we probably should assume they understand their cost side of the equation pretty well.

Surely we can debate the second part taking into account the 20 000 boats (or so) that have been produced with this type of rudder structure (that is used by Beneteau for way more than a decade) the number of boats that had problems and the number that where sailed extensively and circumnavigated without any problem. Not stating any position regarding that debate, just posting facts and create the boundaries.

That debate has been very one sided here and very simplistic, being resumed the evaluation to comments like: CRAP.

An Oceanis, like any mass production boat is built to a cost and cost effective cuts are made to offer an affordable boat. Fact is that most Beneteau owner are satisfied with their boats (you have only to look at any Beneteau owner's thread on this forum) and that's why Beneteau is for many years the biggest boat manufacturer. If they were CRAP, certainly that they would not be the best selling boats for decades. There are several brands with similar price and cost is not the only reason.

Discussions about any problems on any boat are very useful, if falsehoods are not introduced in the discussion and if instead of looking at a problem on a particular model we do not infer that all models of that brand have the same problem (if information regarding failures on different models does not corroborate that).

I have heard about some rudder problems on some particular models of Beneteau but the number of models I have never heard about any problem regarding rudders is vastly superior to those and it is good to remember that for each model Beneteu built many hundreds of boats, sometimes a thousand. If those boats suffered problems, due to their huge number certainly they would made it to boat forums, as this one has made.

Even if the rudder structure is similar, the vast number of Oceanis around, and the many models not showing any significant or particular problem on that area, clearly suggests that it is not a problem common to all models. That the type of rudder structure, even if cost maximized is adequately dimensioned and built on most models..... and that does not mean in all... if evidence shows the opposite.

[neilpride]

Hehe, Lol you have the same credibility than the Lady from Beneteau, Veronica ... I mean Nil,0...


By the way they are masters in covering the crap with more crap.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Hehe, Lol you have the same credibility than the Lady from Beneteau, Veronica ... I mean Nil,0...


By the way they are masters in covering the crap with more crap.

Plexus???

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

Plexus???

Haa Yes with the green snot!!

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Haa Yes with the green snot!!

Horse crap is green too....

Or ...

Should be...

[neilpride]

So the Woman from Beneteau is saying, hey !, no problems so far with your ikea rudder box , enjoy your sailing!! This is Hilarious!!!!

[ontherocks83]

what is the difference between a Oceanis 485 and a Oceanis 48?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

So the Woman from Beneteau is saying, hey !, no problems so far with your ikea rudder box , enjoy your sailing!! This is Hilarious!!!!

Yes you are right. I receive an official confirmation that you are making false statements regarding the recall of current single rudder Beneteaus models and for you and for the moderation of this Forum it is all OK.

No problem in Slandering Brands posting false damaging information.

For me it is enough. I am out of this discussion, if this is a discussion

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Polux

I got an official answer from Beneteau through Veronique Mornet, "maître d'ouvrage" for Beneteau that had sent me an email:

"On Behalf of Beneteau, we would like to reinsure your that we do not have such issues with our rudders on Oceanis 41, 43, 46, 48 & 50, and there are no recall campaign and such an option at the moment on the boats."

What? and you believe this?????? They sound worse then Obama: "Nope nothing to see here, never happened, we are the best blah blah blah" How can you believe, that they believe, there is nothing wrong? If she actually responded saying yes a large amount of our boats have a fatal flaw that can kill you when you are hundreds of miles out to sea, what do you think would happen to their sales and her job? They are going to be masters of damage control to hide this issue, down play it, and fix it discretely.

Yes there is a problem.

NO they are not going to admit anything to someone who randomly emails them about a huge design flaw. Ever hear "don't talk to the press" Because to them everything they say to anyone can make it to or already be the press.

Again I direct you to the video neilpride posted.

Originally Posted by neilpride

Take a break and think about it.
By the way this folks in the video don't think like you, no collision or grounding involved.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

What? and you believe this??????

Recalls of boats or cars, for that matter, are public and well advertised. If a boat or a car is subject to a recall and if that is not correctly advertised and if an accident happens regarding that faulty piece of equipment, the Car or boat company will be subject to huge lawsuits and will lose all of them.

On this case it is not about that Recall not to be well advertised (or not) but regarding asking Beneteau if there was a Recall or not and the answer was clear: No Recall not only on the 48 neither on any recent model.

I really don't understand this line of reasoning denying not only the evidence but also the facts.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Polux

Recalls of boats or cars, for that matter, are public and well advertised. If a boat or a car is subject to a recall and if that is not correctly advertised and if an accident happens regarding that faulty piece of equipment, the Car or boat company will be subject to huge lawsuits and will lose all of them.

On this case it was not if that Recall was well advertised or not but regarding asking Beneteau if there was a Recall or not and the answer was clear: No Recall not only on the 48 neither on any recent model.

I really don't understand this line of reasoning denting not only the evidence but also the facts.

Ok, against my better judgement I'll play.

So what organization in the world is enforcing that they have to recall anything? In the U.S. we have the NHTSA, National Highway Traffic Safety Association which is part of the executive branch and will enforce safety recalls. However they do not apply to boats. So now if you feel there should be a recall and there is not, you as a person have the option to sue the company. Good luck fighting that battle. Hopefully you will get a quiet non-disclosed settlement out of court with a gag order saying you can not tell anyone anything. Much cheaper for them to do that then to recall the whole fleet and losing sales to people that have lost faith.

As far as the "slander" bit lets get real. All he said was there was a recall on those certain boats. Maybe he was mis-informed maybe he wasn't. It's not as if he is saying all Beneteau's are death traps and the company is knowingly and purposefully making their boats to sink so that people die. (See THAT would be slander)

I'm glad you believe them though. I mean you should, it's not like I've ever seen a multi-million dollar conglomerate lie or hide the truth to protect themselves. Yup I trust them so much I'm going to believe them and ignore all the EVIDENCE and go buy that exact same boat and sail it with out a single worry.