Oceanis 485 steering failure

[Polux]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Paolo,

I give up and will unsubscribe from this thread. Before I go may I say that you are defending the indefensible. I have no idea why you take the ridiculous positions you have taken on this matter.

Can you specify those ridiculous takes? In my opinion it is you that have ridiculous ideas about how strong a rudder should be (as if that was possible)

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

Don't give up, just post information about those recalls.
I had asked directly to Beneteau so I should have an answer shortly.

No, i dont, i give it up, obstinated people in their own, no matter what i post here , me or others with clear evidences you take it like fuel for the love of arguing. I dont play that game anymore with you, you should know that i have rigging bussines and facility repair , i am a dealer of Profurl, reckman, navtec, facnor, sparcraft etc... when i need to speak loud and clear by phone, mail, to a customer or to a brand i do it like i say loud and clear.. I dont give a rat arse if Beneteau is reading this forum or others, i be intimidate by brands and other silly people for uncover the crap... take for example Catana and their crapy furlers installation crews,, months and moths of arguing by phone...

You should stop making no sense arguments when the evidence is there, in front of you, are you blind....

The plate is provided by Beneteau AUS dealer,, is OEM by Beneteau. he dont fix the box problem since is bolted in top of the ply, learn something please....

[minaret]

Originally Posted by neilpride

No, i dont, i give it up, obstinated people in their own, no matter what i post here , me or others with clear evidences you take it like fuel for the love of arguing. I dont play that game anymore with you, you should know that i have rigging bussines and facility repair , i am a dealer of Profurl, reckman, navtec, facnor, sparcraft etc... when i need to speak loud and clear by phone, mail, to a customer or to a brand i do it like i say loud and clear.. I dont give a rat arse if Beneteau is reading this forum or others, i be intimidate by brands and other silly people for uncover the crap... take for example Catana and their crapy furlers installation crews,, months and moths of arguing by phone...

You should stop making no sense arguments when the evidence is there, in front of you, are you blind....

The plate is provided by Beneteau AUS dealer,, is OEM by Beneteau. he dont fix the box problem since is bolted in top of the ply, learn something please....

Kudos for trying to bring some sense and truth to the arguments of this joker. But it sure is a waste of breath. He still won't deny that he is paid to do this. I think the mods should give him a new title, like "Bloviator" or something, so every single boat building pro on the forum doesn't have to constantly go around refuting every single BS thing he says. It's exhausting, but we all do it because no one wants the uninformed to actually believe any of this drivel.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ I believe if you look more closely, you will find that that 'white area' is on the rudder shaft rather than on the hull - the lower part of the shaft which turns/rubs on the lower bearing.

Attachment 117956

It is possible that the shaft has dropped down a couple cm's from its normal position, and that is why so much white us showing. That would indicate some damage to the shaft and associated hardware.

But The rudder is quite 'stable' and not moving in the sort of way that I would expect if the shaft was broken and detached from its upper bearing inside the boat. For me at least, that indicates that the head of the shaft was probably not broken off. And that the 'failure to steer with emergency rudder' was either due to the autopilot/quadrant being jammed inside the boat, or the crew simply finding it much more effort to use the emergency tiller than they expected. You should not ever count on a typical bilge pump to bail you out of a below waterline breach - you need a serious crash pump for that.

There is also no sign of the mythical pot/trap. So far I see no sign that this was caused by any outside influence, rather was simply a failure of a boat system - either the autopilot failed and broke the rudder seals or one of the other systems (I listed above) failed and shorted out the autopilot as a side effect of flooding the boat.


As an aside - in a collision (or torquing) with an external object, like a log, usually the damage to the shaft is right at the bottom of the lower bearing, and the rudder snaps right off and is gone.

I agree with you about bailing by bucket.

As a further aside . . . it is eye opening for anyone who cares to examine how ineffective typical bilge pumps are in an emergency situation. They can handle very slow weep and random condensation and rain down the mast . . . but are entirely unable to keep up with a significant below waterline breach. The cooling water">engine cooling water circuit is also not a very high volume pump. Just for some quick numbers - a 2" hole 2' below the waterline will flood 113 gallon/min. The very largest Rule bilge pump (and most boats have bilge pumps significantly smaller than this) will pump 36 gallons/minute against a (typical) 6.7' head. And a 75hp yanmar running flat out pumps 14g/minute of cooling water. On the other hand, a 2" crash pump will move 175 gal/minute against a 7' head - they are also much more impervious to (the almost certain) debris in the water than the typical bilge pump or engine cooling pump - but most boats don't carry these.

Mine does: 360L/Min clutch pump driven off generator, and 560L/min standalone vane salvage/trash pump driven by Honda petrol engine (mobile and stored in laz with associated hosing and strum), to supplement the twin manual and single high output Jabsco electric, between all of which I can shift well over a metric ton of water from my craft per minute… plus a large drawerful of collision damage mitigation kit, and a 2m x 1.5m rubberized canvas crashmat/fothering sail, grommetted, sewn boltroped, and stored with all necessary lines ready to go in a deck locker. Bucket? By that time I am prepping abandonment...

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by minaret

. I think the mods should give him a new title, like "Bloviator" or something,

Now that's funny! I wish they had a "knee slapping funny" emoticon I could use.

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Mine does: 360L/Min clutch pump driven off generator,

I just bought one to run off an engine, but I always wondered if this would work on a generator. Good to know someone has done it before

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Now that's funny! I wish they had a "knee slapping funny" emoticon I could use.



I just bought one to run off an engine, but I always wondered if this would work on a generator. Good to know someone has done it before:thumb:

Yep, been working great for 8 years.

[unclemack]

Just watched the video posted by neilpride (post 199, page 8).

I'd still be reeling in disbelief if it wasn't so depressingly familiar.

Incompetent designs that should have been laughed out of the first meeting make it to production all the time.

Hardly surprising that industrial design doesn't attract the high fliers. Bright kids these days want to be web or game designers and why wouldn't they? That's where the money is.

Don't think I'd trust any of 'em to change a light bulb or wire a plug though.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by unclemack

Just watched the video posted by neilpride (post 199, page 8).

I'd still be reeling in disbelief if it wasn't so depressingly familiar.

Incompetent designs that should have been laughed out of the first meeting make it to production all the time.

Hardly surprising that industrial design doesn't attract the high fliers. Bright kids these days want to be web or game designers and why wouldn't they? That's where the money is.

Don't think I'd trust any of 'em to change a light bulb or wire a plug though.

That video IS scary stuff.

What it does clearly highlight is, regardless of the manufacturer, that using plexus in place of fiberglass in critical, structural areas is just wrong. No matter how much some people defend the use of it, it just does not provide the structural integrity need to do deal with loads and stress cycles.

Especially if using plywood as a substrate. All one has for strength is the glue holding the plies together.

Indefensible what happened.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Mine does: 360L/Min clutch pump driven off generator, and 560L/min standalone vane salvage/trash pump driven by Honda petrol engine (mobile and stored in laz with associated hosing and strum),.

Nice to have.

Just as a note: the pumping rate numbers I was quoting were against a 7' head. I am guessing the numbers you are quoting are against a zero head. I think 6 or 7' is more realistic than 0. It makes a significant difference and is useful if you are trying to compare potential inflow rates to pumping rates.

[dannc]

So here is what I think is an obvious question. How much would it cost to build the rudder tube so that it went to the deck, was fiberglassed properly, and used better mechanicals?

$1,000, $2,000? ...

Later,
Dan

[unclemack]

Oh yeah, forgot, someone asked about crash pumps & trash pumps I think.

Far as I know "crash" pump is just shorthand for the kind of emergency pump that can shift a lot of water fast.

"Trash" & "semi-trash" pumps have the pump housing held together with quick release clamps or extended nuts etc. so blockages can be cleared quickly.
Usually rated for the size of solids they can handle.

Remember a thread a long time ago partly about building a housing for an outboard motor for flooding control, wonder if anyone ever tried it.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by dannc

So here is what I think is an obvious question. How much would it cost to build the rudder tube so that it went to the deck, was fiberglassed properly, and used better mechanicals?

$1,000, $2,000? ...

Later,
Dan

If the rudder Quadrant is down below deck you cant do that... if you want to strengthen a weak tube structure i guess with few hundreds $$ you can make something nice....

[gjorgensen]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Wow, thank you for the info... do you consider make the tube stronger , i mean any substantial modification, i guess yours dont have any kind of ply partition around the tube

No, mine is s simple stack up: Bottom to top,\ it's the lower bearing, the tube over the rudder post, the quadrant immediately above the tube with the autopilot directly attached to it, and then exposed rudder post up to the top bearing which is mounted through the deck. The emergency tiller installs directly into the top of the rudder post at the upper bearing. I've never measured the length between the lower and upper bearings, but in the 40.7 it's pretty substantial - 2.5-ish feet maybe? It's hard to tell once you're in there...

In terms of strengthening that tube, t's not clear to me it would help much because I'm not really sure how you make that tube strong enough to handle a top bearing failure. If the top bearing ripped out, or the rudder post broke at the top bearing, there's enough play in the bottom bearing to allow the post to swing around in a wide arc. Waves alone would thrash it around, but toss in the pilot going crazy and it would be even worse. I'd think that tube would have to be enormously strong to keep from being destroyed in that scenario. Even if you made it out of thick steel you'd have the connection to the hull skin as the weak point. I suppose with enough reinforcement it could be done, but it would really have to be completely re-engineered from what's in the boat. I'd think the lower bearing race and the tube would have to be one piece, the tube would have to be thick steel, and the tube would probably need to be braced against the bulkheads near the top for stability. You' basically engineer the system so that the rudder post breaks before the tube does.

Looking at that, it's all silly - the rudder should be engineered to be the second strongest system in the boat (after the keel) and so that in an extreme collision the rudder breaks off outside the boat long before the bearings or rudder post inside the boat are destroyed. No rudder is way better than a flooding situation. In my case, after looking at that tube and deciding it was worthless, I made a large, round, wedge shaped wooden plug that fits into the lower bearing race, which I carry in the nav station. The 40.7 lower bearing is just about at the waterline, so I figure if we lost the rudder and the tube was fractured the flooding could be slow enough to get that wedge in there. Not that I'd look forward to climbing into the back lazarette while it was flooding...

BTW, I did take a peak in the back of my boat once going upwind in a stiff breeze. My rudder post is FTP like most/all modern Beneteaus, and under load that thing does flex quite a bit, bowing between the bearings. The tube has to be wide enough to account for the arc of the rudder post under load, which appears to make it even weaker given how it's mounted.

[unclemack]

Originally Posted by dannc

So here is what I think is an obvious question. How much would it cost to build the rudder tube so that it went to the deck, was fiberglassed properly, and used better mechanicals?

$1,000, $2,000? ...

Later,
Dan

Could have used a cheap four-part mould to surround the rudder tube and used spray layup to build those buttresses quickly and strongly, rather than 4 pieces of ply separately butted up to the tube with one? two? hand laid almost-attached layers.
Truly pathetic.

[estarzinger]

well, just to swag a cost (we can quibble about every element here, but I guess it is the right ball park - these are 'retail' cost if an owner wanted to make it right - lets say 1/2 of this if Bendy did it in the factory):

#1 you need to install a better upper bearing underneath the deck. Bearing cost $820. Labor cost: 3 hours x $100/hour = $1120

#2 you need a strong shelf for to mount the autopilot - Materials: $100, Labour: 4 hours x $100 = $500

#3 you want to reinforce the tube correctly Materials $200, Labour 5 hours x $100 = $700

Total $2125 (that is not a gucci repair - you could spend a whole bunch more if you wanted to use stuff like say dragon plate )

The most expensive thing for an owner I would think is they then (probably) need a rudder with a longer stock.

Then the next question is how many other things do you want to 'fix' properly? Tab down the keel structural grid? Replace all the ball valves? etc etc? You could easily end up spending $50k making this boat 'proper' - and probably not get any of it back in resale value.