need advice on two boats

[Terra Nova]

If you can't make up your mind between a 24' or 31' liveaboard, you have not spent enough time looking at boats.

[laika]

Originally Posted by topfish

My real dilemma and some input would be nice. I can afford a small dana 24 and not sell home. a larger boat might cause me to sell home as I spend more time on my boat! At 100K I can buy a really nice live aboard. My concern would be not sailing as often. I would sail the dana daily just around port gardner and is that not what it is all about? I looked a 41 Hans Christian and feel I would be dock bound do to my health and inability to single hand the boat!

Both very nice boats with similar layouts. But it sounds like you're not sure if you want to live full time on the boat. That might be something of a deciding factor, and perhaps impossible to know until you're out there doing it. But if you're potentially dockbound with health issues, maybe that speaks to not buying the farm..?

It also seems like you're very emotionally attached to one of these boats and overly anxious to buy.

Anyway, my two cents from this dark corner of the internet. Good luck!

[TrentePieds]

@ #10

Where does the HC41 suddenly come into it? You were talking about a 24 v. a 31. I see no reason that you can't daysail a well-found 31 out of Port Gardner as easily as you can a 24. But quite right, a 41 is getting beyond the "day-sailer" rubric.

If you are serious about living aboard, then absolutely go for the 31 - but not this particular one, given the totally unrealistic listing price. TP is 30-foot, and adequate for man and maid for some weeks, even some months, at a time. But permanently? not for me. Just too damn tight, and no workshop. That way lies dep[ression and insanity! I single-hand her all the time because MyBeloved came to seafaring only at retirement age and has no interest in qualifying to skipper. She loves being in the boat, and on the water, but I single-hand the boat. There is nothing to single-handing a 30-footer, it doesn't even require physical strength. You might like to know that while I'm healthy, I am pushing 80 and I expect to single-hand for a few years yet.

If you can afford the Dana without flogging the house, then you can afford a good 30-footer without flogging the house. To deliberately walk away from an APPRECIATING asset in exchange for ownership of a DEPRECIATING asset is NOT sound financial strategy in this world, as it is unfolding. Keep the house, buy for what you have in the savings account, find a GOOD property manager and rent out the house, and add the rental income to your cruising budget. Then if you find that your health no longer permits cruising or living aboard, or that living aboard just isn't all it's cracked up to be, you just swallow the anchor and go back to the house, no lasting harm done by your escapade.

TP

[topfish]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "boatless at present. list of boats owned would be to long!...Thank you so very much for any and all input!"

I trust you really mean that last bit :-)!

And if you mean the first bit, your question seems perplexing. With a wealth of experience and countless boats behind you, why are you even asking us? You know your circumstances and you know your intended use of yet another boat you intend to acquire. You know that the Salish Sea is utterly benign and that in the "season" you must expect to motor more than you sail. You say you MAY do the West Coast to Baha. You know, I presume, that the West Coast is anything but benign. So what is YOUR list of "must haves" for yet another boat? Be specific!

You are aware, since you've owned so many boats, that boats, except in exceptional circumstances, one sells a boat for LESS than one paid for it. And what is the significance of "new construction" cost in a market that is glutted with perfectly adequate used boats?

You cannot be unaware that 80% of required utility is generally achieved for 20% of the possible expenditure. So why consider boats that are GROSSLY overpriced?

Quote: "I will have a boat with in 30 days!"

A classic mistake. Just like quality, IMPATIENCE costs. And money spent due to impatience will never be recovered, not even in part!

You should be able in the present market to acquire an ADEQUATELY found 30 foot boat for thirty grand. Use the money saved to augment you annual cruising budget.

For illumination: TrentePieds came to us for half the listing price, and for 1/3 of what the PO had spent on her, for "improvements", in the last two years of his ownership - spent on her! I have no idea of what HIS acquisition cost may have been. TP is perfectly fine for the Salish Sea. No sensible man would attempt the West Coast in her.

TP

Thank you for your input. The vast boats I owned were day sailors from lightning's, Rhodes 19 to ensigns.. I am grateful for your constructive feedback! Thank You

[topfish]

I am very grateful for peoples input. Sad some people can be a little nasty- guess it is easy on line. I have sailed small boats which means I do a good deal of sailing! I am drawn to the Dana because it is a transportable boat. I would be day sailing for fun around port gardner with a few trips to Kingston and Poulsbo WA. I could keep my house as a Dana is pretty affordable. I also have MS and need a small boat to safely sail. I am drawn to the PSC 31 ass I view it as an oversized dana. The cost becomes a factor. I still love this boat! I probably never will sail down the western seaboard even if I can dream. I price new boats Dana 24 to build is $259, a 31 is $320 and a 34 is $380.. buying used is what I can afford. I am not looking to cross oceans just want to day sail with some occasional coastal cruising! please understand my sailing goals and refrain from nasty comments. Keep in mind I like the PSC 31 but unable to get a slip. I hope this post clears up some things! again Thanks for any input.

[Drew13440]

Originally Posted by topfish

I am very grateful for peoples input. Sad some people can be a little nasty- guess it is easy on line. I have sailed small boats which means I do a good deal of sailing! I am drawn to the Dana because it is a transportable boat. I would be day sailing for fun around port gardner with a few trips to Kingston and Poulsbo WA. I could keep my house as a Dana is pretty affordable. I also have MS and need a small boat to safely sail. I am drawn to the PSC 31 ass I view it as an oversized dana. The cost becomes a factor. I still love this boat! I probably never will sail down the western seaboard even if I can dream. I price new boats Dana 24 to build is $259, a 31 is $320 and a 34 is $380.. buying used is what I can afford. I am not looking to cross oceans just want to day sail with some occasional coastal cruising! please understand my sailing goals and refrain from nasty comments. Keep in mind I like the PSC 31 but unable to get a slip. I hope this post clears up some things! again Thanks for any input.

Topfish, I was puzzled by your OP at first, but with a better understanding of your goals and circumstances, this is in my mind a no brainer.

The Dana is well suited to your sailing plans, will allow you to single hand with confidence and huge bonus, will allow you to keep your house.

It may need a new battery bank (and it will need a bottom job) right away, but these are tough little boats. I noticed there's another Dana of similar vintage and similar asking price for sale in Seattle. I would size that one up carefully and then flip a coin. Good luck to you.

[topfish]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

If you can't make up your mind between a 24' or 31' liveaboard, you have not spent enough time looking at boats.

That's rude.. both boats would be used differently. The Dana would be sailed daily on port gardner out of Everett with some short trips.. the 31 would require me to sell my paid off house and not sure I would use it any differently. I am an old sailor with MS and need to sail safely! Sailing is also therapeutic for me. So please do not be rude. Get to know me or like our moms said- if you have nothing nice to say then refrain! get it??

[Jim Cate]

Top, your proposed usage does not require boats of this type and price. As TP has said, there are a plethora of suitable craft of similar size and more than adequate seaworthyness for less than half of the prices for these PSC boats. This is a hell of a lot of extra money for what amounts to a style choice... but it is your money and not our place to tell you how to spend it!

People do live aboard boats the size of the Dana, but in an area with as much rain as the PNW, I think one might well find that being cooped up in such a small space for longish times would be onerous. IME, enjoying living on a small boat means lots of cockpit time and less below decks time. A full cockpit enclosure can help with this, but is quite expensive and has severe aesthetic and performance costs as well.

I can offer one specific alternative vessel that would fulfill your needs: the Sparkman and Stevens designed Yankee 30. I know from long personal experience that these boats will outsail either of the PSC designs, have adequate live aboard potential, are easy to single hand and capable of crossing oceans... I've done all of the above with one! And they are often available for <20 K$ with retrofitted diesels. I'm sure that there are many other similar boats on the market. If you have limited funds (as most of us do) the PSC boats have drawbacks!

Good luck with your decision and with the separation of wants, needs and dreams in your mind.

Jim

[TrentePieds]

Top:

Please accept that no-one here ever intends to be rude. Some of us can be a little ... uhm ..."forthright", but that is merely a reflection of our hating to see a man going up a gum tree. Now that we know the nature of your disability, you have, I'm sure it is safe to say, the sympathy of all of us and our good wishes for the future. And I think I can also say that the cautions issued in previous posts apply a fortiori!

So a couple of further comments: To re-engine a 24 footer like the Dana would cost, in Vancouver, Can$15K. Everett cannot be much different, allowing for the exchange rate. Knowing that, I see TP, therefore, as "a wonderful, nearly new Beta engine with a bunch of boat thrown in". A little more formally: The hull and rig is worthless, despite the misapplied tens of thousands that the PO put into her. The engine has only scrap value despite being nearly new. I expect I'd be lucky to get five grand for her if I sold her this year. To dispose of her by scrapping, if I cannot sell her betimes, would cost about $10K So two observations are worthwhile:

1) NEVER put more money into a boat than you can afford to walk away from still with a smile on your face.

2) NEVER mortgage or sell your REAL ESTATE to acquire CHATTELS, particularly not "toys".

3) I used to think that "CYA" stands for "Canadian Yachting Association". It does, but it has other meanings as well. So ALWAYS CYA financially.

Now, given nature of your health problem and the prognosis that usually goes with it, 3) above seems to me to be singularly apposite.

You might like to know that I have been monocular all my life. I had to have a retinal reattachment 40 years ago. Now it's cataracts, and the repair-job that is normally a piece-of-cake for an ophthalmic surgeon will be rendered tricky by the "collateral damage" stemming from the re-attachment and my having glaucoma as well. And given that I'm monocular I, unlike most geezers, get only one kick at the cat. The operation is in less than a month. Then we'll know if I must thenceforth navigate the Salish Sea by Braille ;-0)! Still have to figure out what day-shapes the COLREGS call for in such circumstances :-)!

So again - please don't confuse forthrightness with lack of kindness or lack of empathy!

All the best

TP

[Scout 30]

Don't underestimate the Dana 24.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdG3Lcjn_fs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3avXcIh9LLs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrjnACKNGJk

[gulfcoastsailor]

There are a lot of great boats for a lot less money up there check some of them out

[PAlter]

To push -

109k for a 31 footer seems steep and thought that may be a very nice boat - you could get more for less and end up more comfortable and still have a seaworthy, beautiful and easily handled boat. I have had my 38' sloop"Sequitur" (a LeComte NE 38 designed by Bill Tripp and built in Holland) for 20 years and done extensive cruising in the northeast from NY to Maine and she has been great. I often sail alone but have cruised a lot with my wife and at times with my family (grown girls and grandsons) and we have had a great time.

I am considering selling her and moving up to a 49' sloop. The price will be $ 55,000 USD and she is in very nice shape. If you have any interest, let me know and I can send you the listing. The boat is extremely comfortable, sails well, is extremenly agile with her fin keel, cutaway forefoot, and keg hung rudder (draws 5'-4". She has a relatively new Diesel engine, a beautiful Dutch wood stove of stainless steel and gets loads of compliments for her beautiful lines and great sheer.

Paul
Palter@skolnick.com

[goat]

I was originally looking for a Dana 24. I love the openness of Crealock' s designs. The 31, I wrote off, as I don't like the traveler in the cockpit and prefer encapsulated keels. Both things that are not bad, but just not my preference.

I ended up finding an Orion 27 that I am more than happy with. As a Mohrschladt (sp?) design it's a little more traditional inside ie; not as open, but I've come to appreciate the ability to be in different areas and not just one 'room'.

I've met a ton of sailors on PSCs on my travels. They're well built boats and you won't go wrong with any of them.

They are overbuilt for your intended use however and that's the reason posters are suggesting other boats; You could save a lot of money buying a boat that is suited to what you are going to do, instead of what you might do.

At the end of the day it's your money and you buy what you want. It's a lot easier to put time, money and labour into a boat you love, rather than one you bought cheap.

Best of luck with whatever you purchase.

goat

[topfish]

Again Thanks for your input. I love the Dana 24 as I sailed one years ago in the Navy Sailing Association on the SF bay out of Treasure Island. Getting older I need a little more space. This post was unfair as it really compared two different boats. I need more space then a Dana 24 can provide as I will being extended cruises on my next vessel. I am blessed. I left sailing d/t health and my age. I even almost purchased a trawler CHB just to be on the water.

I WISH TO STAY SMALL!

Because I seek to do some extended living aboard cruising (mostly coastal) along the west coast. I seek a PSC 31. Here is the dilemma. only 100 boats were built. A new one cost 320K base boat and out of my price range. Many PSC 34 are available and are in my price range - just do not like the layout! Not sure I can afford a 37. Lets be real the cost of these boats are very high. New ones go for 320K 31, 340k 34 and this is the base boat. There seems to many more 34 boats available which do not speak to me.

I am also looking at some IP 31's. very roomy and would meet my coastal/extended cruising needs. I know these are two different boats. Please realize I will be living aboard for periods of time. Also I am only getting back into sailing as my health allows for this- I retired from sailing and boating do to health a while back. I am back My thoughts to the younger guys out there- being old with health problems suck

Being tired of cruising the PNW I will make San Diego and Mexico my cruising grounds.

I just wanted to thank all who afforded input. Thank You!

[topfish]

Again I wish to extend my appreciation for everyone's opinions- even the not so nice ones lol. Of course this is a forum with many old salts who are not short on sharing their views. I actually like that very much.

Please realize I wanted a small cruiser mostly coastal and di not wish to sell my home. I was getting to the point I thought selling my home to obtain a quality used boat was a necessity. The Dana 24 was just to small but in my price range which means I could keep my home. I went to a PSC 31 but only 100 boats were made making them hard to find. A new one at 320K base was just not in my budget even after selling my home. I do not want a boat payment. A broker/PSC dealer in Texas explained the 34 actually has more room even without an open layout. I share this because I have found many affordable PSC34's.

My research led me to a Island Packet 31. This was do to pricing and also the room this boat has. Again I could keep my house. Larger IP'S would cause me to sell my home making me a full time live aboard- not something I am opposed to doing! Chain plates were my issue.

I may have found me the perfect boat It is old. A Pearson Vanguard 32 with a tiller. The owner soaked over 60K into a refit. Electrical, electronics, sails, rigging and even a new Kubota engine. My favorite engine I should say! His wife wants a trawler and is forcing him to sell. Happy wife Happy Life. His loss may become my gain!

The broker is sending me a recent survey which I will post on this thread. The boat surveyed at 25K but is selling at 19K. There is some deck delamination- very small area and not a big problem. The yard quoted me 5200$ for a full repair which would be in the purchase agreement. My only other concern is the owner put in a composting head! I have very little knowledge on them. Feedback would be appreciated by you old salts!

The mast is deck stepped and 50 feet tall. I do not think this boat has Keel Bolts.. Again old salts please provide me input!

My real dilemma is do I ship it to the PNW (ALREADY CRUISED OUT) Do I ship it to San Diego my old cruising grounds Mexico included. Or do I just keep it in Texas and experience new cruising grounds? Old Salts please feel free to give your opinions as well.

Thank You for taking the time to read this post! Michael