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Old 07-02-2016, 17:56   #16
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

Waterdog, i sympathize entirely.
Knowing that every boat is compromise, late in 2010 we started looking for the right type of boat that would fit our needs. We narrowed our faves down to some kinda pilot house, or a Catana - yes, we didn't even know if we wanted a mono or a cat.
31st Dec 2013 we finally sold the house and had the money.
Put a deposit on a Nauticat 52 on the other side of the world, after getting a friend with the right credentials to survey it. (Beautiful boats, still love em, but....) In May 2014 went to France to board our new home. Long story short, we walked away from her (the owner had told us too many lies plus at the last minute we discovered of a dodgy repair to the keel had been covered up, & we simply didn't have enough time left on our visa to fix it).
Finally in November 2015 we purchased a very different yacht, one that was not even on our radar: a Jeanneau 52.2. with less berths than we wanted, and less mod-cons, a and no upstairs living area, a smaller motor, less water tank etc etc BUT she's beautiful and safe enough, and has other pro's that other boats we looked at didn't have. Like being for sale at the right price, with no major maintenance due on any of the big ticket items. My new fave is the moody 54 - like for when I've got a few mill to splash on a new boat.... But fantasy and reality are not the same, and perhaps it's better that way. I might change my mind and start wishing for a swing keel.
So my advice would be keep an open mind & in order to stay within budget look at the condition of the big ticket items.
goodluck
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Old 07-02-2016, 18:09   #17
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

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Waterdog, i sympathize entirely.
Knowing that every boat is compromise, late in 2010 we started looking for the right type of boat that would fit our needs. We narrowed our faves down to some kinda pilot house, or a Catana - yes, we didn't even know if we wanted a mono or a cat.
31st Dec 2013 we finally sold the house and had the money.
Put a deposit on a Nauticat 52 on the other side of the world, after getting a friend with the right credentials to survey it. (Beautiful boats, still love em, but....) In May 2014 went to France to board our new home. Long story short, we walked away from her (the owner had told us too many lies plus at the last minute we discovered of a dodgy repair to the keel had been covered up, & we simply didn't have enough time left on our visa to fix it).
Finally in November 2015 we purchased a very different yacht, one that was not even on our radar: a Jeanneau 52.2. with less berths than we wanted, and less mod-cons, a and no upstairs living area, a smaller motor, less water tank etc etc BUT she's beautiful and safe enough, and has other pro's that other boats we looked at didn't have. Like being for sale at the right price, with no major maintenance due on any of the big ticket items. My new fave is the moody 54 - like for when I've got a few mill to splash on a new boat.... But fantasy and reality are not the same, and perhaps it's better that way. I might change my mind and start wishing for a swing keel.
So my advice would be keep an open mind & in order to stay within budget look at the condition of the big ticket items.
goodluck
Very interesting. We too may be cat people. We've spent some time on our friends' 44 in Tonga. For most of how we cruise, a cat is a perfect platform for us. My wife is just not comfortable with the idea of a capsize on a cat. The bigger question for us is actually not which boat, but where to start. The med would be a great place, but I think it's much easier for me to refit in North America unconstrained by immigration, customs, or language issues. We are actually thinking we may go charter a cat in the Med in the fall and categorically answer both questions: are we cat people? and do we want to start in the Med? And I would like to have a look at an Amel Santorin while we are over there. On paper, it's my boat, but if my wife doesn't love it, it's not my boat.
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Old 07-02-2016, 18:20   #18
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

I think once you have seen enough boats, the choices become pretty automated. There are boats for the sea, there are boats for marinas. If you want both worlds, you are likely looking towards a big boat designed for passage making. The big ones are never, as you put it, cramped, inside.

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Old 07-02-2016, 18:20   #19
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pirate Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

So.. you were sitting on an HR39 and concluded it was to small.. seeing as the only two on YW are $250K+ you'll be okay with this maybe..
1996 Wauquiez 48 Pilot Saloon Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Or maybe this...
2003 Wauquiez Wauquiez Centurion 45s Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and finally.. my choice of the 3..

1995 Bowman 45 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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Old 07-02-2016, 18:52   #20
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

Nautcat was menioned, and we own a Nauticat. If you want to avoid delaminated decks and structural issues, buy a Nauticat. It is made of solid hand laminated GRP with no rotting core.

Someone had tested the strength of underwater rocks in good speed with the keel of our boat (somewhat similar experiences to what Nikki S mentioned). But there were no stuctural problems, just a small dent at the head of the led keel bulb. No problems since then. Her strength is now well tested and we continue to have great trust on her.

And as a bonus, Nauticat interiors meet all the female criteria, and their safety criteria too. They are not catamarans though.
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Old 07-02-2016, 19:35   #21
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

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So.. you were sitting on an HR39 and concluded it was to small.. seeing as the only two on YW are $250K+ you'll be okay with this maybe..
1996 Wauquiez 48 Pilot Saloon Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Or maybe this...
2003 Wauquiez Wauquiez Centurion 45s Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and finally.. my choice of the 3..

1995 Bowman 45 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

All nice boats... I may be on the wrong side of the Atlantic!
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Old 07-02-2016, 19:51   #22
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

I was looking in the 27'-30' range with a max draft of 4-4.5' when I accidentally stumbled upon a 36' with a 5' draft. Upon further inquiries and some internet research went ahead and gotten that 36 footer. And damn glad I did as had I gotten that 27-30 footer I'd be looking for a bigger boat by now anyway.

Never know what boat will strike you like a cupid's arrow. Just keep your eyes and your heart open and the rapture will come. I may sound like the late old Prof. Joseph Campbell but I believe this mantra 100%.
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Old 07-02-2016, 20:49   #23
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

Even though I've had my current boat for 31 years, I've done some shopping and often for others. I find the best method is to make a list of about ten features of importance,- i.e. Accommodations, hull, engine, underwater design, electronics, tankage, hardware, etc. When I look at a boat I give each of these a grade from 0.1 to 1.0 and walk away with a numerical evaluation.

This is the only way I'm able to keep a clear mind of what the main contenders are in the running!
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Old 07-02-2016, 22:15   #24
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

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Nautcat was menioned, and we own a Nauticat. If you want to avoid delaminated decks and structural issues, buy a Nauticat. It is made of solid hand laminated GRP with no rotting
every nautical i see out there has teak decks a maint nance night mare. Lovely boats. Fairly pricy used. Slow and a lot of wind age. Plan on motoring. Ok they are motor sailor for a reason.
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Old 07-02-2016, 22:21   #25
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

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I am looking at lots of boats. 40 to 46 feet or so. Hopefully not more than 20 years old or thereabouts. And I haven't established a budget yet. I have worked up some numbers on the ten year cost of boat ownership factoring in acquisition, refit, maintenance, and taking out resale. Newer boats compare surprisingly well to older boats. I've re-rigged, repowered, sewn my own sails, stitched drogues, installed watermakers etc. so I am including old and newer boats in my search. The only thing I am not interested in dealing with is delaminated decks or structural issues.

I am not whining. I love this process. I've sold my house and my dear wife has said lets go buy a boat and do this sailing thing again in the decade (hopefully) of time between the point where my son goes to university and grandkids revive ground based interests.

It seems I should have come to the forum with very direct questions as I am clearly pissing people off with observations or philosophical thoughts. So no worries. I'll go away and report back when I've found what I am looking for or have a direct question on a specific aspect of a boat that I can ask a direct question about.

I do by the way advocate looking at boats and not doing all the homework and research on the internet. If only Yachtworld had scratch and sniff...
Don't go away yet, waterdog, please.

We've been there. Except we lived aboard the previous boat while we were looking for what turned out to be this boat, otherwise we'd've had to have lived in a cardboard box by the freeway.

Early in the process, we made up a list of what we wanted and what were deal breakers for us. We showed the list to various brokers. Their reactions ranged from "get out of here, you're wasting my time!" all the way to, "boy, this is clear, I don't think I have anything quite right now, but would you have time to look at a few in your size range and let me have your feedback?"

As it happens, this boat was never listed, and friends found it for us.

The process is long and often frustrating as well as expensive, so prepare for that. Then decide really clearly what characteristics you're looking for, based on your ocean experience between the PNW and MX. when you're down to the nitty gritty, don't compromise. Seriously poke around to determine access to systems. As it happened, this boat was a good fit for us, but people's needs vary, and i think keeping it simple as possible helps, though a lot of people now seem to demand a great deal more complexity than what we decided that we need. Choosing a home for the next 10 years, is something you'll want to do carefully. Get your list going. Maybe have your spouse generate her first list, too, 'cause you may have some surprises coming, and some negotiating.

Even though it is at times frustrating and expensive, and what you read about the boats are sometimes lies, it's still also fun, so enjoy the search as you will the vessel. Good luck with it, it took us 3 years!

Ann

I saw Boatman's list of 3 for you. Well, maybe you'll want to buy foreign. It'd be an adventure in and of itself!
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Old 08-02-2016, 02:17   #26
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

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every nautical i see out there has teak decks a maint nance night mare. Lovely boats. Fairly pricy used. Slow and a lot of wind age. Plan on motoring. Ok they are motor sailor for a reason.
Most of them have teak deck, some don't (they are custom built). Ours has a teak deck. No problems with maintenance, washing is all we do. I guess it would be pricey to get a new one if it will one day wear out. In that case you could use some cheaper deck material.

In hot tropics I might prefer a cooler more reflective white deck, but in anywhere cooler, teak deck is very nice and safe to walk on. I guess that's why they are there.

There are lots of Nauticat motor sailors, but that's only half of the fleet. The rest are just regular sailboats (all with a pilothouse). Nauticats are planned for heavy duty cruising, not for racing, so they are not the fastest. The pure motor sailor modes may be on the slow side (older models are slower than the new ones, and you might even prefer motoring upwind). But that's not the case for the pilothouse models. I think they are just regular sailing boats. For cruising, pilothouse is a nice thing to have although it adds some wind surface. And for bluewater cruising, I think strength and stability are very important although they may mean more weight and cost some speed.

I'm sure there is a good white deck Nauticat somewhere waiting for you.
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Old 08-02-2016, 03:12   #27
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

On any boat, if you have friends aboard for more than three days, you'll want them to leave.

Paul
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Old 08-02-2016, 03:19   #28
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pirate Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

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All nice boats... I may be on the wrong side of the Atlantic!
Yeah... that's a given...!! but don't worry.. we accept refugee's...
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Old 08-02-2016, 13:58   #29
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

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Sorry guys.



Just getting philosophical on a Saturday morning.



Some observations more than questions. Fundamentally, there are major tradeoffs between liveability, seaworthiness, and affordability. It becomes quite evident as I make the transition from dreaming to shopping. Or as I explained to my broker, "We aren't shopping yet, we are just looking at the different types of boats to figure out which one we want to buy." Lot's of different boats seem awesome on the internet, but you have to check them out, go and kick the tires as it were.



For example, I would have thought an HR 39 would be a dream boat, but hanging out in the cabin for a while left me with the impression that if I had friends aboard for more than 3 days, I would want them to leave. It's too tight for us. An entirely personal thing.



Even the bluewater aspect is somewhat subjective. I am not a believer that a spade rudder is totally inappropriate for crossing oceans. Depends on the design and condition. We had a look at a Jeanneau 43DS. This boat would check all the boxes for my wife. They are nice boats. Well built too. But I had one look at the diameter of the rudder shaft and how its attached into the boat and decided it is not for me. I am sure there are folks on their second circumnavigation in this type that are perfectly happy. It's just not for me.



Nothing wrong the process and I have no complaints. There is nothing better than looking at boats! My questions are unanswerable until they are answered. For example, is the Moody 42 I am going to look at in Florida next week roomy or a little tight? If we stop in France and check out an Amel Santorin will we fall in love or will the whole package just not feel right?

As I viewed a Moody 425, I can say the week point of the design is the galley which hasn't got a real standing height. If I stand in front of the cooker, there is no room for my head, because of the cockpit seatings backs the way...


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Old 10-03-2016, 00:05   #30
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Re: Modern Liveable Design, "Bluewater", Affordable - Pick any Two

Well the first part is concluded. We have an accepted offer on a boat tonight. We chose the "liveable design" and "Bluewater" and gave up on "Affordable".

These things are all relative.

Turns out I started this thread on the wrong forum. We ended up with an extra hull!

A Manta 40 ticked all the boxes for us. Nicely done boat. I have a pretty high degree of confidence that it will still be in the game after sea trial and survey.

Room for an acre of solar on the bimini...
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