Is the Market Really this Bad ?

[Kettlewell]

I said it before in this thread, if you want to maximize price move the boat to an area where that type of boat is popular and commands a better price. I see boats on the West Coast of the U.S. selling for half the price the same boat will sell for in New England. And then I see cruisers with an 8-foot draft on the West Coast that you can't give away in Florida. That's just an example.

[Noname]

Coming from a recent background in Real Estate Sales, it was always acclaimed: Location, Location, Location as being the 3 most important aspects of saleability in a house. Moving a house was never a consideration in most cases, so the alternatives were to price it for the market, where ever the market may be located. Additionally, the "shiny penny" always got the most attention and a subsequent fast sale. "Shiny Penny" meant a clean, well maintained and appealing home; not the one with stained carpet, sagging gutters, unkempt lawn and shrubbery an so on. Thus, a good broker doing his/her job will know the market for the type of boat, recommend any and all maintenance item that need attention to bring the boat to 'bristol' condition and price the boat so that it is a deal that is too good to pass up. It has been said that: "No advertising is like winking in the dark." Meaning, of course, that proper advertising is essential in getting the job done. Done this many times with great success in the housing market.
Thats my free advice; free advice is worth what one pays for it.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

"When the going gets tough the toy's get going"

When the economy gets bad one of the first things to go are boats...if it gets really bad and the bank ends up taking the house people realize then that they should have kept the boat and sold the house. That said, the only reason the bank hasn't taken my brothers house is because he bought it for $1.4mil two years ago and it is only valued at $500K now. Some peoples best option would be to just "walk away" except this economy is based on credit. As far as good boat deals some people are doing just that (Calif is a good example).

[TomandAnitas34]

Seaduction is right on the Money, so-to-speak, when dealing with late model, quality boats. I think the " gosh, is the market this bad " is directed towards twenty to thirty year old boats, which have reached the end of their normal original equipment life spans. While GRP boat hulls have long life expectancies the gear and systems in those boats have reached the end. Teak decks, diesel motors, through hulls, standing rigging, electrical systems, bedding sealant, all are at the end of their service life. The " gee, It looks good to me " type of survey went with the easy money. Things you can't see, like rusting black iron fuel tanks, corroded chain plates hidden in bulkheads and those sorts of things are important. Putting varnish on the interior woodwork is necessary to keep it appealing but varnish only fools a fool. The people looking to buy right now are the informed, savvy crowd. The folks committed to sailing and who know boats. These people have a keen idea about budgets and are aware of just how much cash is required to get where they want to be. As some astute posters have pointed out, buying the boat is just the start. "The wind is free but the bloody sails cost a fortune ! " is one of my favorite quotes.
I just met a local guy who bought an older Pearson. He was the third recent owner, as it's a '73. Owner #1 put $55,000 into the boat, then sold it. Owner #2 put $90,000 in to it. I've seen the pics and the boat. Just the wireing brings tears to my eyes, it's so well done. Water maker, radar, GPS, new Motor, the list of " new" is endless. Seriously, it's several pages long. this guy got it for $58,000. Yeah....
It''s bad news. Folks with early '80's boats, with leaky decks, mild steel uncoated fuel tanks that can't be removed without disembowling the boat, and motors with 6000 hours on them, that think their boats will sell for $100,000 will be in for a shock.

[CarinaPDX]

I'd go with location as the problem as well. However, I would add that potential import tariffs and VAT/sales tax complicate that. If this is an EU-sourced (VAT paid) boat and is sold to a European then the boat must be in EU waters when the change of ownership occurs or VAT is owed - at least that is my understanding. Taking the boat to the US could only be temporary, and at some point taxes must be paid or the boat must leave; I agree that it should sell easier in Annapolis or Florida, but importation will be a negative. I think the best thing to do if it hasn't sold by April is to take her back to the EU where she can be seen easily, prices are (a little) better, and the tax situation better.

[VirtualVagabond]

Not sure that the prices are much better in Europe.
We're about to go boat hunting next month, and I've sent a round of emails to brokers with boats we've made enquiries about over the last 12 months or so.
In 2 instances the boats are 50+ ketches well set up for cruising... gensets, watermakers, roller furling everything, bowthrusters etc. Without even seeing the boats yet, we've negotiated the prices from $210,000 to $150,000. The pricing was already similar to the listing prices for similar boats in USA, and they are in fact William Garden and Bob Perry designed boats.
It's my impression Europe is hurting as much as USA now.

[Freerider]

Originally Posted by TomandAnitas34

I just met a local guy who bought an older Pearson. He was the third recent owner, as it's a '73. Owner #1 put $55,000 into the boat, then sold it. Owner #2 put $90,000 in to it. I've seen the pics and the boat. Just the wireing brings tears to my eyes, it's so well done. Water maker, radar, GPS, new Motor, the list of " new" is endless. Seriously, it's several pages long. this guy got it for $58,000. Yeah....

I can't understand how people can put this kind of money into a refit, are they including some insane boat yard prices? Are they paying the Oyster boat yard to do the work?

I'm refitting a 35' right now, no boat yard fees and I'm doing all the work myself. I just can't see how its possible that I could put $100 000 into it or why I would want to try. I'm thinking $30 000 max, including a $10 000 engine and $3500 wind vane.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond

Not sure that the prices are much better in Europe.
We're about to go boat hunting next month, and I've sent a round of emails to brokers with boats we've made enquiries about over the last 12 months or so.
In 2 instances the boats are 50+ ketches well set up for cruising... gensets, watermakers, roller furling everything, bowthrusters etc. Without even seeing the boats yet, we've negotiated the prices from $210,000 to $150,000. The pricing was already similar to the listing prices for similar boats in USA, and they are in fact William Garden and Bob Perry designed boats.
It's my impression Europe is hurting as much as USA now.

I think the EU country's are hurting more... they can't just de-value and print their way out anymore... thats why one by one the Rating's domino's are tumbling... apart from Germany..
the 'Factory of Europe'...
the only reason the UK's hanging in there is coz they've fiscal freedom...
Well... thats my simplistic view...
Education may be needed...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I think the EU country's are hurting more... they can't just de-value and print their way out anymore... thats why one by one the Rating's domino's are tumbling... apart from Germany..
the 'Factory of Europe'...
the only reason the UK's hanging in there is coz they've fiscal freedom...
Well... thats my simplistic view...
Education may be needed...

Yes they can't like the US or the UK print any money at all. Germans made sure of that one, however I expect in 2012 that will change, survival being the mother of change. The eurozone effectively recreated a gold standard and that's causing the problem, US and UK can finance huge deficits by QE , the eurozone has in effect a fixed amount of euros and there's not enough to go around. Grease those printing presses ( the subsequent devaluation would be useful as would modest inflation)

Dave

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes they can't like the US or the UK print any money at all. Germans made sure of that one, however I expect in 2012 that will change, survival being the mother of change. The eurozone effectively recreated a gold standard and that's causing the problem, US and UK can finance huge deficits by QE , the eurozone has in effect a fixed amount of euros and there's not enough to go around. Grease those printing presses ( the subsequent devaluation would be useful as would modest inflation)

Dave

+1

But before the Germans ok the printing presses the Eurozone countries will need to agree how the Eurozone should operate (both during the next years and then afterwards) and how it will deal with a future financial crisis (there is always a next one ).

Otherwise the Germans are better off being the first out of the Eurozone.......

The solution(s) are not actually that difficult.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by TomandAnitas34

Seaduction is right on the Money, so-to-speak, when dealing with late model, quality boats. I think the " gosh, is the market this bad " is directed towards twenty to thirty year old boats, which have reached the end of their normal original equipment life spans. While GRP boat hulls have long life expectancies the gear and systems in those boats have reached the end. Teak decks, diesel motors, through hulls, standing rigging, electrical systems, bedding sealant, all are at the end of their service life. The " gee, It looks good to me " type of survey went with the easy money. Things you can't see, like rusting black iron fuel tanks, corroded chain plates hidden in bulkheads and those sorts of things are important. Putting varnish on the interior woodwork is necessary to keep it appealing but varnish only fools a fool. The people looking to buy right now are the informed, savvy crowd. The folks committed to sailing and who know boats. These people have a keen idea about budgets and are aware of just how much cash is required to get where they want to be. As some astute posters have pointed out, buying the boat is just the start. "The wind is free but the bloody sails cost a fortune ! " is one of my favorite quotes.
I just met a local guy who bought an older Pearson. He was the third recent owner, as it's a '73. Owner #1 put $55,000 into the boat, then sold it. Owner #2 put $90,000 in to it. I've seen the pics and the boat. Just the wireing brings tears to my eyes, it's so well done. Water maker, radar, GPS, new Motor, the list of " new" is endless. Seriously, it's several pages long. this guy got it for $58,000. Yeah....
It''s bad news. Folks with early '80's boats, with leaky decks, mild steel uncoated fuel tanks that can't be removed without disembowling the boat, and motors with 6000 hours on them, that think their boats will sell for $100,000 will be in for a shock.

This post is spot on. A lot of boat buyers (myself included) have the "dream". They spend tons of money and then for some reason or another the dream is broken. Also what was said about old shoddy steel tanks and leaky (teak) decks is also true.
I see it as 2 ways to go. Spend a hefty amount up front (if you can afford it) on a "newer" vessel with relatively new gear or buy an early bare bones production boat with integral tanks and F/G decks, outfit minimally and take off immediately. I've seen folks buy a 1969 Pearson 35 for $15K, drop another $10K for gear and take off for 5 or so years. At the end of it they could probably sell it for $15k or so.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Freerider

I can't understand how people can put this kind of money into a refit, are they including some insane boat yard prices? Are they paying the Oyster boat yard to do the work?

I'm refitting a 35' right now, no boat yard fees and I'm doing all the work myself. I just can't see how its possible that I could put $100 000 into it or why I would want to try. I'm thinking $30 000 max, including a $10 000 engine and $3500 wind vane.

I can...For exactly the reason you point out. Most people now a days can't do their own work. Our society has exported so much manufacturing off-shore, the younger end of the country has lost the ability to know which end of a screwdriver to pick up. Like you, I do as much as I can. I rebuilt my diesel for 1/4 the cost of a new one, do my own wiring, plumbing and all installs. Most of these people could learn quite easily by simple just doing it. I have the feeling by the time I take off, I will have all the work I will ever need in any anchorage along the way.

[Mexdon]

Maybe slightly off topic but could relate. Earlier today I was looking at property site on the Mayan Riviera. A new feature on the ads...."click here to receive an email when the price for this property drops".

Was wondering when yacht brokers are going to have the same feature on their listings.

[DeepFrz]

Web Chiles just dropped the price of "Hawk of Tuonella" from $89,000 NZ to $49,000. NZ and may have sold her in about a week, if the deal goes through.

Urupukapuka Island: pirate days

[Noname]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Web Chiles just dropped the price of "Hawk of Tuonella" from $89,000 NZ to $49,000. NZ and may have sold her in about a week, if the deal goes through.

Urupukapuka Island: pirate days

I don't know whom to credit with this quote, but here it is: "Price is the best salesman there is."