Full Keel Sailboats

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by thataway41

I raced fin keel boats (as well as a few modified full keel) for many years. When I was dong long ocean passages, short handed, the full keel boat I choose was far easier to control, and did well in over 40' breaking seas, with engine ticking over, (Keeps some flow across the rudder even in turbulent crests), auto pilot steering, and storm jib sailing quartering down wind. I have sailed fin keel boats in lesser conditions, where there was a lot of "work" in keeping the boat under control. I doubt that the pilot I had would have been able to cope if there had been a fin keel.

The next long distance cruising boat was a smaller Cal 46, which had more of a cutaway longer keel--with spade rudder, and it also handled well in heavy conditions. Both of these boats were slower than most of my racing boats. I would trade comfort and safety for speed of a passage any day. Just my opinion, with a couple of hundred thousand miles under the keels.

Nice.

How's Pensacola? I heard they finally moved the sewage treatment plant from downtown!

I sailed across that bay a lot as did my son (from our apartment right on Bayou Grande) on his Hobie 16!

He at 15 and his friends would sail the 7 miles or so to Pensacola Beach to meet chicks they had been talking with online. They were all children of divorce even mine and staying with the other parent during summer vacation.

They once did it on the outside and didn't return until dark which was a tough day for Dad even though I saw them go out the pass from the navy chief's restaurant but couldn't stop them

They were lucky to have their own transportation although I did have to watch them through binoculars as a strong squall over took them one afternoon coming back across Pensacola Bay. That boat was flying across that bay easily in excess of 22 knots plus. My son later said all three of them were on the back of the boat but the sterns were still coming out of the water. The lightning and thunder was terrible and I was freaking out.

They ended up at a Marine barracks at NAS and never pitchpoled. My son had been my racing crew since he was 10 years old and was a natural on the boat

This in 1996.

By 1997, he would be sailing our Nacra 6.0 with his 180 lb buddy to Juana's in Navarre for lunch.

[Bleemus]

Yes, if you like going slow and ignoring the last 50 years of yacht design.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

Yes, if you like going slow and ignoring the last 50 years of yacht design.

I don't like going slow unless I'm tired and don't feel like steering anymore then I like it!

[roland stockham]

Some very good summaries of the benifits and penalties for full keel designs but like all other desins there are good and bad ones. there are curtainly long keelers that sail like ashed and should be avioded. I would emphasise a couple of points very strongly. While the 'keel falling off' is something that has been seen I think it is a case of boats being used for the wrong purpose. Unless it is a very extream design it should be possible to engineer a fin keel to stand up to ocean sailing. Bear in mind that keel stressess in ocean passages, especially on trade wind routes are much higher because of the constant rolling. The keel mounting pionts and bolts must be build to a spec which prevents these cyclic loads causing fatigue. As with rigging everything needs to go up a size or two.

For me a more important issue is rudder protection. A look at the stats from the atlantic ralley will confirm that rudder problems are a significant piont of failure. A traditional long keel mounts the rudder to 3 pintels, top, bottom and center. A spade rudder has a single mounting through a bearing. Any colision either with the bottom or flotsom can bend the shaft and dissable the boat making it untowable and has lead to boats needing to be abandoned. Additionally spade rudders are very vunerable to entanglement in fishing gear. For this resson I consider fin and spade rudder design unsuitable for serious cruising and ocean passages.

Anothe equally important piont is that I require a cruising boat to be able to easily and comfortably hove too. This is not just a storm tactic, beaing able to stop for a meal, wait for the tide over a bar or for trafic to clear are all times I have hove too. I have never found a fin keeler that will reliable do this. Even if you can get them to lie at a reasonable aspect the make far more leeway due to the small wetted area.
The idea that long keelers wont manover is largly a myth. They do require specific techneque but in is perfectly possible to spin one in its own length. Getting them to go atern however is a problem. With a prop close behind a keel or skeg the water flow will prefer on side and always try to swing the boat away from that side. This can't be fully compensayed for with the rudder. The result is you can't track in reverse at very slow speeds. Not found this a major problem and generally it can be overcome by using warps or simply turning the boat round but you do need a bit more planning to avoid getting stuck at the end of a long narrow marina channel if you like living in car parks.
As far as performance penalties go I don' see this a a significant issue unless you race. A well desined cruising boat should be able to make hull speed in around 12-14kn on anything except hard to the wind. The extra wetted area of a long/full keel means you need a bit more sail so she will have a bigger rig. This usually has the bonus of better light airs performance. No a long keel cutter will never sail as close as a high aspect bamuda rigged race boat so if you cruise as if doing an ocean race you will find it dissapionting.
My advice is that if you have never sailed a moderate/heavy long keel ketch or cutter then find a way to try one before buying. I don't think you will ever want to go back to skinny sails and keels for cruising.

[Greg Mason]

Dockhead, cross currents and tide rips may be a phenomenon of the Pacific Northwest among other places as stated, but I can assure you, even with a fin keel boat you can do an Olympic pirouette in a New York minute.

[sailorladd]

In my humble opinion, yes, these full length or full/cutaway forefoot keels are the best for long distance sailing, as it is less likely to go off course as much as a fin keel, which is very sensitive to the helm.

Fin keels are a concern, as they can sheer off if a reef is struck, or a floating log or container etc, causing the boat to sink, bolts can get fatigued and can in some cases fail.

Many good boats have been sunk due to bolt on keels, ...With a full keel boat it is an integral part of the hull and has ballast internally built in, so there is way less to worry about...

[slap]

Originally Posted by sailorladd

In my humble opinion, yes, these full length or full/cutaway forefoot keels are the best for long distance sailing, as it is less likely to go off course as much as a fin keel, which is very sensitive to the helm.

Fin keels are a concern, as they can sheer off if a reef is struck, or a floating log or container etc, causing the boat to sink, bolts can get fatigued and can in some cases fail.

Many good boats have been sunk due to bolt on keels, ...With a full keel boat it is an integral part of the hull and has ballast internally built in, so there is way less to worry about...

Jeff_H has told a story about his parent's Pearson Vanguard - it ran aground, damaging the bottom of the keel and the internal ballast fell out. A rare thing, but it does happen.

Few boats have been lost due to bolt on keel failure. And the fault is usually poor maintenance or poor repairs.

[thomm225]

Those keels are hefty also.

I sure hoped they used lots of fiberglass and epoxy to hold them in place. Mine has a 2600 lb chunk of lead in it and it's quite fat!

I have bounced mine off the bottom quite a few times now. But we're talking mud, sand, or clay bottoms not rock.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by slap

Jeff_H has told a story about his parent's Pearson Vanguard - it ran aground, damaging the bottom of the keel and the internal ballast fell out. A rare thing, but it does happen.

Few boats have been lost due to bolt on keel failure. And the fault is usually poor maintenance or poor repairs.

That boat was built from 1963 - 1967 which makes it old even for Full/ Long Keel boats.

My boat is a "late" model 1974 and barely 45 years old.....

[botanybay]

Nice summary

[a64pilot]

Spade rudders are not only on fin keels, and they can be very well protected too.
This is a spade rudder on a full keel boat.

[daletournier]

But is that a spade rudder? Its attached to the keel at the bottom, but I do agree, I think the Cal 46 had a spade rudder full keel.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Spade rudders are not only on fin keels, and they can be very well protected too.
This is a spade rudder on a full keel boat.
Attachment 201115

[slap]

Originally Posted by thomm225

That boat was built from 1963 - 1967 which makes it old even for Full/ Long Keel boats.

My boat is a "late" model 1974 and barely 45 years old.....

My impression is that it happened to Jeff_H's parents Vanguard when it was fairly new.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Are these the best for sailing offshore?

With 5,566 posts me thinks your just trying to stir up some activity!

Good job. 👍 LOL

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by hpeer

With 5,566 posts me thinks your just trying to stir up some activity!

Good job. �� LOL

Maybe but I just love talking about boats! I think it started here. See attached.

It was either that or when ocean waves removed all the sand from under my feet at 3-5 years old at Assateague Beach, VA

I bought my first one at age 17. It was a Chincoteague Scow with 40 hp Johnson outboard and a trailer for $300.

After I bought it, I wanted to put it in the water immediately! (I was 17)

So instead of using the ramp 800 yards from the house I bought it at on the seaside (oceanside) I pulled it toward the bayside 6-7 miles away.

On the way one of the rims disintegrated. First lesson learned. Check for rusty rims. I sold that boat a month later and it went from there

I thought I already knew everything I needed to know because some kid told me about the three R's. Probably in class since 1/2 the boys were sons of waterman/oystermen/crabbers and I already knew how to get a lawn mower running since it had been my way to make a "living" since I was 10.

But we did get it in the water that night since my brother worked at a place that had trailer rims. We "borrowed" one