Experience of trying to buy a starter monohull

[Demonius]

Originally Posted by basssears

I'll play slight devil's advocate on moving up the financial chain in general, but with the caveat that I was looking in a higher $$$ range anyway.


Basically we bought a sound hull and, as we'd been lead to expect, immediately spent about 30% of the purchase price on cleaning up the things that needed to be cleaned up. But now I KNOW those things were done and done to my specs, if I'd spent that extra 30% on purchase price with a CLAIM that those tasks had been taken care of I wouldn't have been as sure they were done right.


So basically, for us, we're happier having bought a $30k bought and spent $10k on it than we would have been with any of the $40k boats we looked at.


But like I said, my caveat is maybe that thinking doesn't translate down to the £10 zone...

Yeah that's what we're doing. If you're buying a 1970s boat then fixing it up is always going to be the case. I don't mind replacing all the obsolete kit on a boat I just don't want to pay for it first. People are calling Raymarine ST40s as recent upgrades . So recent raymarine doesn't even carry spares anymore. I don't know what is considered recent in boat terms but a decade isn't recent in any other world.

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Demonius

Yeah that's what we're doing. If you're buying a 1970s boat then fixing it up is always going to be the case. I don't mind replacing all the obsolete kit on a boat I just don't want to pay for it first. People are calling Raymarine ST40s as recent upgrades . So recent raymarine doesn't even carry spares anymore. I don't know what is considered recent in boat terms but a decade isn't recent in any other world.

And of course the challenge is still there of finding a fundamentally sound boat, not always easy...

[Demonius]

Originally Posted by basssears

And of course the challenge is still there of finding a fundamentally sound boat, not always easy...

Yeah and you'll be amazed at the raised eyebrows when you start pulling open panels and shining lights in the dark places. Nobody want's you looking at their keel bolts

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Demonius

So the current market price for a well maintained 30' mid to late 70s yacht in the UK is £10,000. Everyone understands this. However every buyer I've spoken to seems to be under the impression that their 30' barely maintained death trap also is worth £10,000. What's worse is the brokers won't tell them the reality. (To be fair the one broker I spoke to who did tell an owner the truth, got fired that same day.)

I've not encountered a single boat that anywhere meets required safety standards. Nobody is replacing rigging, guard rail wire and the recommended intervals. Most boats I've looked at don't even know when the rigging was last replaced. As for mast servicing or windlass servicing … forget it. People aren't even maintaining their gelcoat. Almost all electrical and electronics are obsolete. Yet they all still believe that I should be paying top dollar for it.

So from a new buyers perspective look at it like this.

I pay £10,000.
Then I need to re-rigg: £2000-£3000
Rewire the guard rail: £500 - £1000
Repair gel coat: £2500
Upgrade electronics: £2000

So I end up paying £20,000 for a boat that is still worth £10,000.

I don't understand why people won't understand that not maintaining your boat renders your boat value to basically ZERO for a new buyer!

What's worse is I visited almost every sailing club the entire west coast of my country. The number of sailors under the age of retirement I met I could count on one hand. There is no new market coming that is creating value for these boats.

Effectively the existing owners are ensuring that there will be almost no future to the life and sailing will once again become a preserve of the elite super rich.

We have all walked the docks and seen those boats with two feet of grass growing on the bottom...stop whining!

A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it...but the seller only need one buyer and he may have to wait for it.

You obviously have more a concern about price (getting a deal) than finding the right boat for yourself. Your the buyer and you can walk away and keep looking...it took me five years to find a boat that met my ratio requirements that I could afford. With so many disappointments you complain about I'm wondering if your the problem with an unrealistic view of the market. After a couple months you can always go back to one of these boats you say is overpriced and make another offer. Some patience during a boat search is required.

Most new boat owners don't really know about boat details and what it takes to own and maintain them...it is a lesson only learned the hard way.
Newbies only know what they can see and how it may fit into their dream, so looks are important to them but the devil lies in the details and can be overlooked...i.e. a boat doesn't look as sharp as you may like but may have good bones and a lot of potential and just needs some love.

There are things that are important and some that aren't for a safe vessel. Having to buy a new set of flares or fire extinguisher is no reason to pass up a boat, neither is living with older electronics that still work fine and can get the job done...be reasonable.

Keep looking and good luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Demonius]

Originally Posted by MJH

There are things that are important and some that aren't for a safe vessel. Having to buy a new set of flares or fire extinguisher is no reason to pass up a boat, neither is living with older electronics that still work fine and can get the job done...be reasonable.

I can only go on marine surveyor recommendations. I don't have the experience to ignore the red and amber warnings on surveys. Are you saying you shouldn't listen to the surveyor? What impact will that have on insurance?

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Demonius

So the current market price for a well maintained 30' mid to late 70s yacht in the UK is £10,000. Everyone understands this. However every buyer I've spoken to seems to be under the impression that their 30' barely maintained death trap also is worth £10,000. What's worse is the brokers won't tell them the reality. (To be fair the one broker I spoke to who did tell an owner the truth, got fired that same day.)

I've not encountered a single boat that anywhere meets required safety standards. Nobody is replacing rigging, guard rail wire and the recommended intervals. Most boats I've looked at don't even know when the rigging was last replaced. As for mast servicing or windlass servicing … forget it. People aren't even maintaining their gelcoat. Almost all electrical and electronics are obsolete. Yet they all still believe that I should be paying top dollar for it.



So from a new buyers perspective look at it like this.

I pay £10,000.
Then I need to re-rigg: £2000-£3000
Rewire the guard rail: £500 - £1000
Repair gel coat: £2500
Upgrade electronics: £2000

So I end up paying £20,000 for a boat that is still worth £10,000.

I don't understand why people won't understand that not maintaining your boat renders your boat value to basically ZERO for a new buyer!

What's worse is I visited almost every sailing club the entire west coast of my country. The number of sailors under the age of retirement I met I could count on one hand. There is no new market coming that is creating value for these boats.

Effectively the existing owners are ensuring that there will be almost no future to the life and sailing will once again become a preserve of the elite super rich.

Typically the cost of repairs and renovations and upgrades done by an owner for their own usage benefits on a used sailboat will only be yielded a 10 to 20% value return as to the settled price when sold. Used is used.

You have astutely and correctly budgeted your real purchase price as being the sale price of the boat PLUS any and all refurbishments you feel you desire to accomplish upon purchase.

Yet, there is no call for being upset by your upfront entry costs, particularly as to a now forty plus year old boat, which boat is likely owned by someone with considerably more years than the hull.

Who still owns electronics in their home that are four or five decades of age. Expect that there are enhancements required and just frame your mind about accomplishing such and to not expect a value enhancement from accomplishing such.

I would agree with you that sailboaters are demographically generally an aging lot, kind of like the mix of riders of Harley Davidson motorcycles. As they sail into the sunset there will be more and more used boats placed on the market devaluing the price. I for one have not seen the same level of interest in sailing by younger generations, whereas I got hooked as a young teenager, now in my early 60's so still just a kid, relative to many boaters in my marinas.

[CFS Klopas]

Originally Posted by Demonius

So the current market price for a well maintained 30' mid to late 70s yacht in the UK is £10,000. Everyone understands this. However every buyer I've spoken to seems to be under the impression that their 30' barely maintained death trap also is worth £10,000.

So my question here is: if both the well maintained boats and the death trap boats are listed at 10k, why aren't you coming across the well maintained ones while searching for your bargain? Are you intentionally looking at 10k boats that appear to be in distress and expecting to negotiate down while assuming quality boat owners won't negotiate?

If you can't afford 10k I respect that, I paid $6k for my 29'er. I'm wondering if the 10k boats that you think are well maintained aren't. Or if your definition of well maintained is "everything except the hull is less than 5 years old".

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Demonius

I can only go on marine surveyor recommendations. I don't have the experience to ignore the red and amber warnings on surveys. Are you saying you shouldn't listen to the surveyor? What impact will that have on insurance?

By all means use the best surveyor you can find but it is their job to find problems AND THEY WILL because that's their job and what you are paying for. Obviously not all findings noted on the survey are of the same concern. Major issues are worth walking away from; lesser ones not so much and are a bargaining position if you really like the boat. I walked away from one boat after spending for the haul, survey, and an extra engine test survey. It was a good decision and money well spent but spent it was. Make sure the boat you are having surveyed is a boat you truly want even if it will have a few issues...you should love it first.

Insurance companies want your business and may require the major surveyor noted discrepancies to be taken care of as an understanding of the policy. With survey in hand you can question them about it before the purchase to avoid any problem.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by basssears

I'll play slight devil's advocate on moving up the financial chain in general, but with the caveat that I was looking in a higher $$$ range anyway.


Basically we bought a sound hull and, as we'd been lead to expect, immediately spent about 30% of the purchase price on cleaning up the things that needed to be cleaned up. But now I KNOW those things were done and done to my specs, if I'd spent that extra 30% on purchase price with a CLAIM that those tasks had been taken care of I wouldn't have been as sure they were done right.


So basically, for us, we're happier having bought a $30k bought and spent $10k on it than we would have been with any of the $40k boats we looked at.


But like I said, my caveat is maybe that thinking doesn't translate down to the £10 zone...

The OP is talking about British Pounds not US dollars. And he's said that he expects the final project to hit 20,000 pounds. So he's really not too far out of your price range. Unfortunately for him, the west coast of the UK is a long way from the "lands of broken dreams" and getting a cheap 30'er home would be a daunting task for him so he's stuck with the local market conditions.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Yet, there is no call for being upset by your upfront entry costs, particularly as to a now forty plus year old boat, which boat is likely owned by someone with considerably more years than the hull.
I for one have not seen the same level of interest in sailing by younger generations, ....

Pretty accurate comments. I always counsel people looking for boats to not be in a rush. There is always a deal that is good for a particular person if you are willing to look long enough. As we say in business, Good, Fast, and Cheap. You get to pick two of the three!

As of the interest of young people, I think the interest is there but the time/financial constraints are a big issue. Mike O'Reilly hit the nail on the head. I am involved with two yacht clubs and a sailing club and a lot of people in their teens, twenties, and thirties are interested. The common concern I hear is that they are worried about having the time and the money to get involved.

This is one reason why here in NYC there are a lot of sailing clubs. The boats are maintained for them and the costs to test the waters are only several hundred dollars for a year. A number do end up buying however a lot of them just continue to belong to the sailing club in lieu of buying. In many ways, it mirrors the trend towards renting or buying condos instead of buying a house and all of the concomitant maintenance and direct expenses. We see this also in the number of people who no longer buy DVDs, CDs, etc. and instead stream things.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

Pretty accurate comments. I always counsel people looking for boats to not be in a rush. There is always a deal that is good for a particular person if you are willing to look long enough. As we say in business, Good, Fast, and Cheap. You get to pick two of the three!

As of the interest of young people, I think the interest is there but the time/financial constraints are a big issue. Mike O'Reilly hit the nail on the head. I am involved with two yacht clubs and a sailing club and a lot of people in their teens, twenties, and thirties are interested. The common concern I hear is that they are worried about having the time and the money to get involved.

This is one reason why here in NYC there are a lot of sailing clubs. The boats are maintained for them and the costs to test the waters are only several hundred dollars for a year. A number do end up buying however a lot of them just continue to belong to the sailing club in lieu of buying. In many ways, it mirrors the trend towards renting or buying condos instead of buying a house and all of the concomitant maintenance and direct expenses. We see this also in the number of people who no longer buy DVDs, CDs, etc. and instead stream things.

This is off topic but I am seeing more and more that markets are going to "other than ownership". Many, many things are turning into subscriptions and rentals vice ownership. I am currently doing the Windows 10 upgrade and if I want to continue Windows Office or Quicken software its all subscription, no ownership...there is no residual value to anything, no secondary/aafter market for used items in the future. It is all going to be more expensive long term.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Tillerjockey]

You're trying to buy a boat using the traditional broker arrangement. Broker's don't work for free and usually don't want to touch a boat under 10K as there's no money in it for them.
Go to your local boat yard. There are lot's of boats that haven't paid the storage fee in years. They yard will gladly let you have it at low to no cost, just to get them off their property.

[Vasco]

Love it when folks gripe that they can't get a boat for what they think it's worth. That's why they don't have a boat. Whatever the market is it's what it is. Pay and go sailing or bitch and stay at home, venting on the internet

[GTom]

That's right, and the factor can easily be worse than 2x. Just think about it: the "rich", who can afford major repairs and upgrades don't play in this price bracket, not even below £50k.

With the new rigging, don't forget a new furler, about £2,000 for 30'. Replace the "like new" 15yr old sails: £3,000.

New cushions: easily £2,000

There are cases, when you REALLY have to walk away from a deal, like osmosis: treatment alone costs more than the boat nowadays. Worse with rotting teak decks: removal costs 2x more than the boat.

As for electronics, if it works, I would not touch it for 4-5 years. Get a tablet for big screen plotting, far cheaper than plotters. If you are not in a very crowded area, you could skip AIS for a few years.

Even a "well kept" boat has aging components, everything has a lifespan not just sails and the rig: seacocks, cushions, headlining...

Further, you have to be extremely lucky to find a boat for sale right after an expensive refit. People invest heavily in their boats BEFORE they embark on longer, multi-year trips not before they get rid of the unwanted liability, loosing most of the investment value. Of course, people fell ill, die, etc right after a major refit, but your chances are slim.

Originally Posted by Demonius

So the current market price for a well maintained 30' mid to late 70s yacht in the UK is £10,000. Everyone understands this. However every buyer I've spoken to seems to be under the impression that their 30' barely maintained death trap also is worth £10,000. What's worse is the brokers won't tell them the reality. (To be fair the one broker I spoke to who did tell an owner the truth, got fired that same day.)

I've not encountered a single boat that anywhere meets required safety standards. Nobody is replacing rigging, guard rail wire and the recommended intervals. Most boats I've looked at don't even know when the rigging was last replaced. As for mast servicing or windlass servicing … forget it. People aren't even maintaining their gelcoat. Almost all electrical and electronics are obsolete. Yet they all still believe that I should be paying top dollar for it.

So from a new buyers perspective look at it like this.

I pay £10,000.
Then I need to re-rigg: £2000-£3000
Rewire the guard rail: £500 - £1000
Repair gel coat: £2500
Upgrade electronics: £2000

So I end up paying £20,000 for a boat that is still worth £10,000.

I don't understand why people won't understand that not maintaining your boat renders your boat value to basically ZERO for a new buyer!

What's worse is I visited almost every sailing club the entire west coast of my country. The number of sailors under the age of retirement I met I could count on one hand. There is no new market coming that is creating value for these boats.

Effectively the existing owners are ensuring that there will be almost no future to the life and sailing will once again become a preserve of the elite super rich.

[MountainKing]

Originally Posted by tarian

The reality is if all the boats you are looking at have those prices then that is the market value , unless you have hard evidence they all go to scrap
...
It sounds like you are blaming all the owners for not selling their boast to you for your price point , but it is a service industry the price is set if you do not like it move on simples

The market value is the price they end up selling at, not what they're listed at. The fact that these boats are sitting listed for years and not selling suggests that they're not at the market price or they would have sold in a few months if in season. The problem might be that the ones that are properly priced have been scooped up, and OP is just looking at an odd time of year. I'd think many boats get listed near the end of the sailing season, or people think they'll get a better price and interest listing near the beginning of the season. Just thinking that boats properly priced at the end of the season may have been bought already. Need to get a "sold boats" price listing printout to see if it's true for OP's area and range of boats.