Experience of trying to buy a starter monohull

[Demonius]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Mike speaks wisdom. What happens if you look at the same size, but on the market for slightly more, say 12-15K? Are those the well-maintained boats that won't cost you as much total?

If I could find one like that I definitely would but I'm just not finding them. On the web the boats look great and well maintained but you turn up and it's been sitting there unmaintained and uncleaned for two years and it's still no deal on price reflecting this. The average condition of boats I'm seeing is quite frankly shocking. The is zero chance of them getting through a marine survey without scary safety advisories.

[thinwater]

That answer is obvious. I've always felt the "project" end of the market was over priced, for the reasons that have been expressed.


So instead, look for the gems, reward the buyer for keeping the boat up, and pay 20-40K. You will save a LOT of work, take on less risk, spend more time sailing, and if you maintain her well, probably get the difference back.


A 30-footer that is well maintained, with new rigging, elelctronics, running motor and a good interior is worth 20-40K. Don't kid your self on that. You've explained the reasons.


The other boats are going to go to the landfill. The number of boaters is falling and that is where they are going. They just are. Too bad boat recycling is not as organized as car recycling.

[Demonius]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The other boats are going to go to the landfill. The number of boaters is falling and that is where they are going. They just are. Too bad boat recycling is not as organized as car recycling.

Yeah I agree. It's a shame because a lot of them are restorable but if the owner won't sell what can you do.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Demonius

Yeah I agree. It's a shame because a lot of them are restorable but if the owner won't sell what can you do.

Most cars are restorable, but we don't. We scrap them and buy new because it is more economically efficient for all involved. We all do. We keep the ones that are in good conditional and that have been maintained, we recycle the ones that are worn out. The point is, some of the older boats are simply done. We shouldn't cry, we should move on.


As for the 30' starter yacht... start smaller but spend the same amount of money on a better boat. Much more sensible IMO. I am quite good at the crafts, but I don't want to waste my time on a project boat. I'm guessing most people's time would be better spent on something else. That is why they are scrap.


I moved down from a cruising cat to a 24' trimaran a few years ago. I bought one in good shape and it's fun. I fix little things, I tweak, and she will be in better shape when I sell her. But I don't "restore" projects. Why would I want a project that wastes both time and money, when I can be much happier with something just a little smaller? It doesn't make sense to me or to most people. Don't dream of a big boat.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The other boats are going to go to the landfill. The number of boaters is falling and that is where they are going. They just are. Too bad boat recycling is not as organized as car recycling.

Yes, that is certainly true in our area. And the cost of scrapping a boat is going rapidly upward. Anyone who figures that out is willing to sell a tired , old boat for a few thousand - or less. It saves them money. The sad part is that the buyer has high hopes of sailing on a bargain budget, but has no idea what it will cost to make the boat safe and serviceable.

[tarian]

The reality is if all the boats you are looking at have those prices then that is the market value , unless you have hard evidence they all go to scrap
Brokers know the market and yes the owner might not budge but what looks cosmetic can easily be dealt with, make your own life lines very easy to do and a fraction of the cost ,
why does it need new rigging ? have you had it checked by a rigger most coastal boats never change the rigging in their life time , it he boat already has electronics that work , why do you need to upgrade ?
An owner will never plough thousands into a boat to sell they will never get their return , this is very important to understand.
Gelcoat repairs are very easy to do I brought a 40 year old hull back to pristine, you also said the boats were shot but you have not had any surveys done , the hull and engine could be in decent condition , these are your major factors and costs.
It sounds like you are blaming all the owners for not selling their boast to you for your price point , but it is a service industry the price is set if you do not like it move on simples

[dannc]

We saw two boats in a marina last year that were just rotting away. Both were about 30 feet long and built in the 70's, MAYBE, early 80's. Neither boat had moved in ages. One had green stuff growing on the cabin top and it was just sad. It was the owner's dream boat and he was working to upgrade/update the boat but his health went. I would guess what he has paid in docking fees are worth more than the boat. He likely thought he would get better and return to the boat but it would seem that is not happening.


Tis a shame but I don't know if anyone would even take the boat for free, and if he does not sell it before he dies, he is just leaving a big problem for his estate to handle. It is sad.


Later,
Dan

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Demonius

So I end up paying £20,000 for a boat that is still worth £10,000.

Boatonomics lesson 1: The value of a boat and the cost of a boat are two very different things.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Demonius

Yeah that's the kind of boat we are looking at and nobody wants to do a deal. We're offering $10k and getting sneered at. The boats are sitting there year after year unsold and unsailed. I just can't figure out why you would pay £4000 mooring fees for a boat you don't want, to make an extra £2000 on sale price.

I think that what you're seeing is that if these sellers were reasonable their boats would belong to someone else by now. The reasonable sellers don't own their boats anymore. Given that you're at least willing to handle the problems and you seem to be aware of what these things cost, I think I'd start looking at boats listed a little higher with hopefully less maintenance to be caught up on. Boats that have been sitting idle for years are usually a mess. Nick O'Kelley once said that a boat you don't want anymore is not an asset but a liability.

BTW, Nick if you're reading this RIP Sugar.

[Paul Kelly]

I think there are two slightly different but connected issues here:

1. Boat maintenance and
2. Boat Sales

I’m on the South Coat of England and have sold and bought in the last three years. I know people in my club who have sold and bought and chat to my local broker, who I like and trust. My broker tells me has been quite busy and has been selling – even in December and January. A Moody 31 in our club sold in a matter of weeks last Autumn. Someone else in our club sold his Beneteau 26 without difficulty. OK, these last two boats were more 80s than 70s.

But the key issue is that if a boat is well maintained and well-presented there is a market for it. I think that could be equally true for 70s boats, but like houses if you don’t look after them, they will lose their appeal and value.

People can get silly on price and it ends up costing them. I had to drop a few thousand when it came to selling my Beneteau First 285. But I halved my insurance costs and my yard fees and it went to a new owner who was thrilled to have it. My worry level also reduced by several hundred percent.

[Pizzazz]

I think you are looking it the wrong way. Once boats go past a certain age their value falls to $15-20K and stays there. One reason is that you can get a tax write-off, another is that the value of the parts (engine, winches, etc.) is significant.

Further, once you get a boat, any boat for that matter, it is unlikely that your annual maintenance costs including slip fees will be less than $10k/year. Why would anyone who owns a 35 year old boat replace the rigging for $5,000 when he can enjoy the boat with the existing rigging. It does not compute. Also, no matter how much you repair the gelcoat, a 30 year old boat will not look like a new boat. There is no point in maintaining a very old boat to an immaculate standard. It will be more expensive vs the depreciation cost on a new boat.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Demonius

Yeah I totally agree and the market isn't reflecting that reality.

We put an offer in on a boat on Sunday. Now it was a little low nothing extreme, we expected to get haggled up another thousand but the boat needed re-rigging and safety upgrades so we reflected that in the offer. This boat has been on sale for almost 2 years (with nobody coming to see it in that time) and the owners said point blank they aren't interested in moving on price.

It's unfortunate you didn't get to the negotiation stage, but some sellers know what their boat is worth (to them), and will accept nothing less. You can't know if it is the right price, or the wrong price. That determination is up to the seller. All you can do is offer the amount that the boat is worth to you.

If you continue to come up short, then you need to reassess your valuation, or you need to find a different market (different location or different boats). There's no proper price for anything in a market economy. There is only the price that sellers and buyers agree on.

I really do think you would do better by moving up the financial ladder a bit. You obviously have a clear idea of what you need with regard to maintenance and safety. It is usually cheaper to spend a bit more up front, than to try and fill in necessary gaps later.

[Tillsbury]

Absolutely agree. The best value upgrades for your boat are the ones the previous owner paid for.

[Demonius]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Absolutely agree. The best value upgrades for your boat are the ones the previous owner paid for.

Well I'm out looking at as many as we can find but TBH I think the decent boats must be selling before they hit the websites. Atleast I'm young enough to wait 5 years. Just means a few more grouse shoots instead.

[basssears]

I'll play slight devil's advocate on moving up the financial chain in general, but with the caveat that I was looking in a higher $$$ range anyway.


Basically we bought a sound hull and, as we'd been lead to expect, immediately spent about 30% of the purchase price on cleaning up the things that needed to be cleaned up. But now I KNOW those things were done and done to my specs, if I'd spent that extra 30% on purchase price with a CLAIM that those tasks had been taken care of I wouldn't have been as sure they were done right.


So basically, for us, we're happier having bought a $30k bought and spent $10k on it than we would have been with any of the $40k boats we looked at.


But like I said, my caveat is maybe that thinking doesn't translate down to the £10 zone...