Advice on Bestevaer Pure 45 please

[Alden]

I'm keen to have your thoughts on the Bestevaer Pure yachts. Thank you.

I've received a friendly reply email from Ms Jildou Huisman at KMY, with handy info focussing on the Pure yachts, rather than their custom builds, noting that I'm keen (need!) to keep costs contained.

The Pure 45 looks eminently suitable and refreshingly appealing. It might solve some of the bugbear problems I've come up against from thoroughly examining the Hallberg-Rassy 44 and the Garcia Exploration 45.

Please, be frank and open with me - what's not to like about the Pure 45 that could become a bugbear or showstopper? To guide your thinking let me mention what's bugging me about the other two.

With the HR 44, I’m concerned about:

- getting cold to the bone from the more exposed watch-keeping position (how good is a cockpit tent?);

- interior storage space for large items (eg, sails, bikes);

- diesel tank volume of 430 l and hence limited motoring range (~650nm) and/or heating/generating/watermaking endurance;

- the more vulnerable nature of GRP hulls. An HR 48 sank in 2017 after being whacked by a whale's tail. The rescued owner has replaced it with a Garcia Exploration 45.

Things I love about the HR 44 are:

- its sailing performance and enjoyable sailing feel (really good, including upwind in light airs);

- the forward visibility from the cockpit and shelter under the well designed sprayhood;

- the interior layout and look, with a big aft cabin, two other sleeping cabins and two good bathrooms (that do not open onto the salon/kitchen area!), each with separated showers;

- the very well sound insulated (and accessible) engine room, which renders the engine almost inaudible from the cockpit at sensible revs;

With the Garcia, I'm concerned about:

- it is heavy, wide, underpowered and slow. Its sailing performance might leave me disappointed. I’m told it’s comfortable, with a soft, easy motion;

- the cramped space and feel of the salon and the slit windows, which are not a lot of use when heeling, including looking forward;

- forward visibility from the cockpit is not good, even with the new windows in the dodger;

- the central forward berth is not well set up for sleeping while underway. A friend is installing hammocks to use on the mattress.

- the insulation scheme, while effective and twice as thick as the Allures boats, is composed of self adhesive foam panels of varying thickness (75mm max against the hull down to around 10mm or less on the ribs and internal bulkheads) and I wonder if those panels and sheets will stay stuck over time;

- gaining decent internal storage means converting the starboard aft cabin to a utility room, though this also provides a bigger bathroom with a decent shower, along with more accessible space for a washing machine and generator;

- I'm not convinced it is as well ventilated as I would like, but it does have extraction fans, which would be quite handy;

Unlike the HR, there's nothing I particularly love about the Garcia, but its good points are:

- solid construction, good seaworthiness, ability to dry out without fuss;

- good diesel tank capacity of 700 l (some say a bit more);

- the arrangement of the transom, with compartments for line drums, mounting for auxiliary propulsion or a water generator, etc, is good. The rear arch is standard and handy;

- I'm told the insulation is effective, for sound and cold/heat. The floor boards are foam core insulated and they work. I've listened to how well they attenuate engine noise in the salon - less good in the cockpit though.

*****

If you’ve read this far you’re a champion! What I need to do (before booking a visit to KMY) is to weigh up whether the Pure 45 comes unstuck in respect to the points mentioned above.

Some quick thoughts on the Pure 45 of the positive kind are:

- its narrow hull form and waterline length should make it go well, probably much the same as the HR 44. Better than the Garcia I would think;

- I think we'd go for the centreboard option (if its sailing performance is good enough!), which I understand will enable drying out (flopped over?) and should also allow generous tuning of the boat's natural frequency at anchor, to avoid being in sync with swell;

- the full aluminium hull and coachroof/pilot house looks to be every bit as well made and strong as the Garcia and Boreal boats I’ve crawled through. The watertight bulkheads are a mighty fine idea;

- the cockpit locker storage looks useful, but I can’t find photos. The forepeak storage is ideal.

- the longer length of the cockpit benches with tiller steering looks to be ideal for stretching out;

- natural ventilation looks better than in the Garcia;

- my wife and I like the airy look and feel of the interior. Headspace in the salon seems generous.

Early concerns with the Pure 45 are:

- is there space for a washing machine? And a generator? Watermaker? What’s access like?

- the round hull portlights look to be very expensive but desirable options;

- does the pilot house seating arrangement actually work? Are those foot-boards wide enough for seating comfort? Can you lean back and reach your feet across to the other side? These seats don’t seem very long. Would a fill-in board and cushion make lying laterally feasible? Did SWL and NE stretch their pilot house to lengthen these seats?

Any and all comments will be most appreciated. Go ahead, pop my bubble! Right now I’m enjoying the feeling that I might have found a pretty handy solution.

[cj88]

I like the stretched pilothouse that n77 and SWL did as I think it improves the looks plus it would make it a bit more spacious feeling. I like that the Allures uses a spray cork as the initial layer of insulation as it creates a thermal bridge which is no bad thing on an aluminium boat. Could this be an option for the Bestevaer? How far does it flop over when grounded with the twin rudders? Would beaching legs be necessary? What's the space in the head like? Would you be looking at 2 or 3 cabins? Two cabins would leave more storage space so a washing machine should be easier to fit.

[Alden]

Originally Posted by cj88

I like the stretched pilothouse that n77 and SWL did as I think it improves the looks plus it would make it a bit more spacious feeling. I like that the Allures uses a spray cork as the initial layer of insulation as it creates a thermal bridge which is no bad thing on an aluminium boat. Could this be an option for the Bestevaer? How far does it flop over when grounded with the twin rudders? Would beaching legs be necessary? What's the space in the head like? Would you be looking at 2 or 3 cabins? Two cabins would leave more storage space so a washing machine should be easier to fit.

Thermal bridge or thermal barrier? You've got me wondering?? I did see that spray-on cork at the Boreal factory but can't recall it at Garcia/Allures. Might not have been visible due to stage of manufacture of the yachts I crawled through (and I did crawl at times, torch in hand).

I think we would like the three cabins, so both son and daughter can visit with friends. They say they will, particularly if we pay the airfares, be it to Tahiti or Tromso.

Re flopping over, the centreboard option includes twin, shorter rudders, made of aluminium (stronger than aluminum, due to the 'i' not having leached out). Ah, perhaps the idea is for the boat to stay upright, resting on the tripod of the raised centreboard and the two rudders? That could work. Jeez I hope someone did the maths on stresses on the rudders and bearings.

Re SWL and NE's stretched limo pilot house, I'm hoping they'll measure up what they've got for bench space. However, a Pure won't have a mod like that. Besides, I think I'd be quite happy with the length in the cockpit benches. Tons of room for a snooze on those while Mrs Alden is in charge.

[cj88]

Whoops! Thermal barrier to prevent thermal bridging.

[alansmith]

Oh, the problems of living in the first world countries! Oi vey! Smile.

[Alden]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Oh, the problems of living in the first world countries! Oi vey! Smile.

Ha! Hi Alan. You’ve brought back memories. I used to see ‘that’s a serious first world problem!’ posts like yours over on the Porsche forum. But once I migrated to the Ferrari forum, ... nope, didn’t happen there.

[klaaskootsra]

With the pure, KM left the design philosophy of gerard dijkstra who build a bigger boat with empty ends, favouring the ship motions. So don’t expect to buy a smaller version of his. To your direct question I cannot provide you an answer.

However reading through considerations I was wandering if you considered a breehorn yacht too? Built to sail with a well protected doghouse.
Anytime you pay KM a visit, they may be worth a visit too and they are just half an hour away.

I do have a 44, with 700l of diesel, 700l of water, washing machine, pleanty headroom and storage space. Alternatively they also offer a 48.

[Alden]

Originally Posted by klaaskootsra

With the pure, KM left the design philosophy of gerard dijkstra who build a bigger boat with empty ends, favouring the ship motions. So don’t expect to buy a smaller version of his. To your direct question I cannot provide you an answer.

However reading through considerations I was wandering if you considered a b reehorn yacht too? Built to sail with a well protected doghouse.
Anytime you pay KM a visit, they may be worth a visit too and they are just half an hour away.

I do have a 44, with 700l of diesel, 700l of water, washing machine, pleanty headroom and storage space. Alternatively they also offer a 48.

Hi klass. Thanks for this. I will follow up.

Now, you’ve got my attention, big time! How did you get 700l of both diesel and water in an HR44? Jonas did say they could switch a water tank to fuel, but not so I’d get 700 of both. I’m fascinated.

Re the HR48 - yep, wonderful in many ways, but the design features of the HR44 (long waterline length, twin rudders, interior space) and its lower cost (ha!) are very enticing. We should talk.

Re Bestevaer Pure - I’ve found pics of it drying out, standing on the tripod of its retracted centreboard and twin rudders. This is a useful feature, for occasional or emergency use. But there hasn’t been a Pure 49 with a centreboard, and I’m wondering why, given the good performance and utility of this choice.

[klaaskootsra]

Sorry if i wasn’t clear.
I do have a breehorn 44, on which, during the build, an aditional watertank and dieseltank were added.

[Alden]

Originally Posted by klaaskootsra

I do have a breehorn 44, on which, during the build, an aditional watertank and dieseltank were added.

Got it. Sounds very useful. I will look right now. Thanks.

[cj88]

Originally Posted by klaaskootsra

Sorry if i wasn’t clear.
I do have a breehorn 44, on which, during the build, an aditional watertank and dieseltank were added.

Hi, just wondering if you have any knowledge of Berckemeyer yachts? They seem to have some nice looking designs.

[klaaskootsra]

Originally Posted by cj88

Hi, just wondering if you have any knowledge of Berckemeyer yachts? They seem to have some nice looking designs.

No, don’t know them.

[Alden]

Originally Posted by cj88

Hi, just wondering if you have any knowledge of Berckemeyer yachts? They seem to have some nice looking designs.

No knowledge, but I've been looking at their designs this morning, following your prompts. There's some interesting ideas there, but I'm not seeing anything that is pulling me away from the Dykstra/Bestevaer/KMY solution.

Below is a pic of a Bestevaer 45 drying out, which I think would be a very handy capability to have, for use when convenient or in emergencies. I'm told that the port side rudder unexpectedly speared into a soft spot in the mud, but it was all OK. I asked KMY about the design of the rudders and bearings and was assured it's all strong enough for this, which has to be a good thing for normal use too.

Questions on noise:

- creaking and squeaking inside the yacht? How are bulkheads and furniture panels fixed to the hull and floors in aluminium yachts? I'm familiar with GRP designs, where fibreglass laminating is used by good makers.

- creaking of sole boards? Unavoidable, or not an issue with aluminium boats?

- does anyone have experience with the effectiveness of the engine noise suppression with KMY/Bestevaer designs. Are there any sound pressure level (SPL) measurements anywhere? The yacht.de review article for the Pure 45 did not provide any SPL info.

- this (first) video demonstrates the noise of the tunnel bow thruster, while the second two videos allow us to hear (or not really hear) the sound of Sidepower retractable thrusters. Quite a difference. I'm not sure there'd be much sleeping happening with the tunnel thruster under your bed! Probably not with the retractable ones either - not that my first mate would be sleeping while docking or leaving harbour anyway ... . Any news on whether KMY can do the retractable style thrusters? Sure, I can ask them, but do folks here have thoughts and comments. Thanks.

Bestevaer Pure 45 bow thruster noise

Low noise of both bow and stern thrusters - retractable Sidepower with HR 412

Low noise of Sidepower thrusters - HR 44 - starts at 2:30 Do try to get this video to play through your Facebook login. Select HD, turn the volume up and enjoy. It's quite impressive.

[noelex 77]

Alden, you have narrowed the choice down to three great boats. Choosing a boat is a tough decision. You really need to see and sail the boats personally to decide on the best option for you.

A few thoughts:

Bow thruster:
The Pure bow thruster is a fixed Side Power model from memory. The important properties for a bow thruster are reliability and ease of servicing. On the performance side I would be more concerned about the effective power so that the bowthruster can be used to overcome a strongish crosswind and do so for a reasonable length of time. This is especially important in a yacht with twin rudders where kick from the prop is not available. The Pure models with the retractable keel are fitted with twin rudders so this aspect becomes important if you regularly visit marinas. I would not place too much emphasis on the noise level of the bow thruster. They are only used occasionally. Some noise can even be helpful in that it alerts crew on neighbouring boats to a boat approaching. If short handed, extra help can sometimes be useful.

Portholes:
I have always thought portholes were better avoided if practical on a sailing yacht. I would recommend fitting the minimum number possible. Judging by production boats, my view is not shared by most of the boat buying public.

My objections are that portholes are very close to the waterline when sailing. The seals need to withstand the direct impact of waves. It is tough to maintain a watertight seal long term with this type of water pressure. Even worse, many portholes are in a position where they are vunerable to even minor impacts when docking. In my opinion, there are better ways to produce a bright welcoming interior and to enjoy the outside view.

Having said that, the portholes I have seen on the Bestevear models are very well done. Firstly the internal hull structure is heavily reinforced (see photo). The portholes are deeply recessed so they should not be damaged by docking acidents or pressure from fenders. Finally they are glass not plastic so will not scratch, craze or most importantly lose strength with age. A hinged solid stainless steel internal storm cover is fitted on many Bestevear models for added protection. So they are portholes made like all boatbuilders should make them. I have not had a close look at the portholes in the Pure range, but if they are done as well as on Bestevaers then they eliminate most of my objections, although the view from the pilothouse windows is so fantastic (and this is where you spend most of the time) that the limited water view through a porthole is perhaps superfluous.

Pure rudder:
See photo of the internal bracing for the retractable keel model of the Pure (which has dual rudders). One advantage of aluminium construction is that heavy reinforcement of critical areas is easy to achieve. So the boat can be made strong where it counts. The rudders on the Pure are seperated from the rest of the boat with a watertight bulkhead so that any damage is contained. The Pure also has a watertight bulkhead forward and the latest boat (which I have just seen in construction) has a watertight door seperating the owner’s cabin, so this is now an option that is available for these boats. Together with a tough aluminium hull, this makes an extremely seaworthy combination.

[Alden]

Thanks for these comments NE. That pic of the porthole reinforcing is instructive - and reassuring. I found your pics posted in another place of the first Pure (Nescio?), including of the rudder shaft and bearings. Wow. While I'm not in a position to be concerned about the strength of the rudder mounts and bearings of the HR, having seen these Bestevaer versions, well, the difference is stark.

There's no question that welded aluminium makes for strong boats, but a question is, has this translated into safer seafaring, compared with GRP boats? I've been thinking about how I might do some research on loss rates and typical events, to bring some real data to the analysis. I need a friend in the maritime insurance industry. When I spoke with Pantaenius a year ago they made no distinction between GRP and aluminium construction, which surprised me.

Does anyone know of a resource that provides information on losses of yachts, their details and the circumstances? It would be strange for all of us to have the views that we have on what makes for a good, safe boat without there being a solid body of evidence that we can consult.

NE - my wife and I are talking about little else these days other than the pros and cons of the HR 44 and the Bestevaer Pure 45. So many pros, very few cons, for both. But so different. I agree with you on bowthruster noise - not an issue. However, a big discriminator, potentially, is engine noise. I'm digging and digging and finding nothing on the Bestevaers, whereas I've made my own measurements on the HR 44, which match those of Yacht.de magazine - very quiet, particularly in the cockpit. I've asked KMY for numbers - standing by. But what can you say? Do you have a decibel meter app on your phone? I use Decibel Ultra.