Winged Keels

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Oh man, You and Sailorboy joined forces once and went for a sail. That must have been an adventure . I wish I could've been there, I bet the conversation was very interesting. Next time you all are in the peoples republic of Massachusetts, let me know, I'd love to join!

I’m livin’ and workin’ here in Mass until mid April.

Sailorboy and I got along fabulously, he and Mrs Sailorboy are very nice people and wonderful hosts. We just don’t get along as well online, but now that he’s on his boat full time like me for much of he year, I think we agree on most things. I can’t remember the last time we had a disagreement.

[replusted]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW, a troll through the PHRF ratings shows in most cases where there are both a wing and a conventional keel the wing is rated slower. A few show as equal, but I didn't see any where the wing was faster. Didn't look at all of the hundreds of ratings, though...

Jim

Jim is correct. Looking at PHRF rating numbers will give a good indication of the performance differences. In many instances the PHRF rating between a wing keel and a deep draft keel on otherwise identical boats is 6-12 seconds a mile. (the wing keel boat having the higher rating) By using these figures to calculate time to destination on a 100 mile trip, you would reduce your travel time by 10-20 minutes if you had the deep draft version. If you had to alter direction to avoid a shallow area, all bets are off. I've sailed/owned both and I doubt that most people could tell the difference unless they were sailing upwind alongside a sistership with a different keel configuration.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by replusted

I've sailed/owned both and I doubt that most people could tell the difference unless they were sailing upwind alongside a sistership with a different keel configuration.

I think that is probably true of bilge keels as well. Perhaps round the cans on a Sunday morning with 6 gorillas sat on the rail you would notice a difference. Back in the real world with ma and pa sailing along with older sails, a bit of bottom growth and the sheet angles not quite right, the choice of fin isn't going to matter, so long as they are happy

[Group9]

The winged keel version of my former sailboat performed 1000 per cent better than the fin keel version, when sailing in six feet of water!

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I think that is probably true of bilge keels as well. Perhaps round the cans on a Sunday morning with 6 gorillas sat on the rail you would notice a difference. Back in the real world with ma and pa sailing along with older sails, a bit of bottom growth and the sheet angles not quite right, the choice of fin isn't going to matter, so long as they are happy

I’m no racer, but I knowingly and intentionally gave up performance for a shoal draft and a keel configuration that accepts groundings without damage, and I sail right over things that would trap other configurations. I know it’s cheating, but if I start my motor to charge batteries and run it at 1000 RPM, I go to windward with the best of them
I don’t ground as well as a bilge keel, but those are pretty rare around my parts.

[MartinR]

I have a winged keel on mine, and she goes to windward well. But of course, there is some windward performance loss compared to a full draft keel. If correctly done, the center of gravity of the full draft and the shallow draft wing keel should be the same.

For a cruising boat, I prefer the shallow draft to what amounts to about a 2% increase in overall performance. The drawback is though that the rudder is almost as deep as the keel, so better not run aground.

For a winged keel to be really effective it has to be designed correctly. I guess there are many keels out there where this was only done by feel, and they are probably not very good.

Also winged keels do only work on low to moderate aspect ratio keels. The first wings showed up on a 12 meter yacht and this was no coincidence. They have a low aspect ratio keel and actually a trim tab, giving real lift upwind, which also is enhanced by the wing keel. Performance increase was very small, but very small is much in racing where victory margins are counted in seconds over hours.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by MartinR

I have a winged keel on mine, and she goes to windward well. But of course, there is some windward performance loss compared to a full draft keel. If correctly done, the center of gravity of the full draft and the shallow draft wing keel should be the same.

For a cruising boat, I prefer the shallow draft to what amounts to about a 2% increase in overall performance. The drawback is though that the rudder is almost as deep as the keel, so better not run aground.

For a winged keel to be really effective it has to be designed correctly. I guess there are many keels out there where this was only done by feel, and they are probably not very good.

Also winged keels do only work on low to moderate aspect ratio keels. The first wings showed up on a 12 meter yacht and this was no coincidence. They have a low aspect ratio keel and actually a trim tab, giving real lift upwind, which also is enhanced by the wing keel. Performance increase was very small, but very small is much in racing where victory margins are counted in seconds over hours.

I hear that. However, I'm not concerned about running aground, nor about the seconds of advantage in racing. My big question with this boat is about the winged keel regarding its ability to perform in a blow.

I've been through a few big storms, one Force 10 delivering a 43' Morgan (sloop with an inside stay that we handed the storm sail onto) from Panama to Hawaii. It was a fin keel that responded quite quickly when breaking over the waves on a close reach. Myself and the delivery captain had no problem helming, but the other two crew put the rigging through hell ....as well as my ability to sleep in the V-berth. I actually thought that the boat responded too quickly, though I'm sure it was more about their ability to keep their attention on the wheel.

My question is how this winged keel would do in the same conditions. I love the boat we are looking at, and it IS a big heavy cruiser, cutter rigged (or a sloop with a furling staysail). How would the wings effect the overall boat handling?

The other situation is that I know how to sail, but Wifey and any of our friends who have volunteered to assist on the longer passages have little or none experience sailing. I'm confident I can teach them as we go, but I also want to be able to get some sleep. In that light, I much prefer a heavier 'slug' to something that will jibe just by looking at it sideways - bin deer, dun dat, had a T-shirt made, then burned it in effigy.

My original thought about the winged keel was with heading into a wave, that it would hold the bow up longer, then drop it harder into the trough, only to force the bow through the next wave rather than over it. Not sure this has been answered, but will admit that the hull buoyancy and boat weight should overpower any wave traveling over the wings, ....but I don't know this is true.

Of the winged keels I have seen online, this one seems big and a very different design. Fore to aft, it's just under 7', and tip to tip almost 8'. If I held that size piece of plywood up a 5mph wind, it would carry me away. So, in water, it has to have some kind of an effect.

Is there any foundation to my belief?

[MartinR]

Easy answer. At least on my boat that is a non issue. She behaves perfectly in waves.

The keel is in the center of the boat and the wings do not effect pitching much. Pitching is the relevant factor here, not the up and down motion, but I guess even for that the keel would not affect it much, compared to the buoyancy of the hull. Keeping the ends of the boat light is important in my opinion.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Easy answer. At least on my boat that is a non issue. She behaves perfectly in waves.

The keel is in the center of the boat and the wings do not effect pitching much. Pitching is the relevant factor here, not the up and down motion, but I guess even for that the keel would not affect it much, compared to the buoyancy of the hull. Keeping the ends of the boat light is important in my opinion.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Oh man, You and Sailorboy joined forces once and went for a sail. That must have been an adventure . I wish I could've been there, I bet the conversation was very interesting. Next time you all are in the peoples republic of Massachusetts, let me know, I'd love to join!

Don’t read too much into it.

Btw my deep draft current Hunter still have a wing on it.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

I hear that. However, I'm not concerned about running aground, nor about the seconds of advantage in racing. My big question with this boat is about the winged keel regarding its ability to perform in a blow.



I've been through a few big storms, one Force 10 delivering a 43' Morgan (sloop with an inside stay that we handed the storm sail onto) from Panama to Hawaii. It was a fin keel that responded quite quickly when breaking over the waves on a close reach. Myself and the delivery captain had no problem helming, but the other two crew put the rigging through hell ....as well as my ability to sleep in the V-berth. I actually thought that the boat responded too quickly, though I'm sure it was more about their ability to keep their attention on the wheel.



My question is how this winged keel would do in the same conditions. I love the boat we are looking at, and it IS a big heavy cruiser, cutter rigged (or a sloop with a furling staysail). How would the wings effect the overall boat handling?



The other situation is that I know how to sail, but Wifey and any of our friends who have volunteered to assist on the longer passages have little or none experience sailing. I'm confident I can teach them as we go, but I also want to be able to get some sleep. In that light, I much prefer a heavier 'slug' to something that will jibe just by looking at it sideways - bin deer, dun dat, had a T-shirt made, then burned it in effigy.



My original thought about the winged keel was with heading into a wave, that it would hold the bow up longer, then drop it harder into the trough, only to force the bow through the next wave rather than over it. Not sure this has been answered, but will admit that the hull buoyancy and boat weight should overpower any wave traveling over the wings, ....but I don't know this is true.



Of the winged keels I have seen online, this one seems big and a very different design. Fore to aft, it's just under 7', and tip to tip almost 8'. If I held that size piece of plywood up a 5mph wind, it would carry me away. So, in water, it has to have some kind of an effect.



Is there any foundation to my belief?

My gut says that other than maybe not pointing quite as high, on a cruising boat, it’s not going to make a significant difference. Your worrying about a non issue, or else there would be a whole hearted outcry against winged keels, and there isn’t.
Other things are way more important like having too much weight on the ends leading to hobby horsing, I’m guilty of too much weight on the ends, especially the bow, but for some reason my boat tolerates it and doesn’t hobby horse.

Although I have never seen a 7 Ft by 8 Ft wing

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Although I have never seen a 7 Ft by 8 Ft wing

I just revisited the photos, and you may be right. Front to back, it is very near 7', but tip to tip, ...maybe you can tell me. I'm 6'4" and I can lay on it.

[a64pilot]

My belief is it’s not going to affect the pitching moment as it’s likely very near the center of gravity, or maybe center of pressure, meaning the it’s real close to the pivot point.
What model of boat is this? If not a custom build there should be some info available

[Race_661]

I like the advantage of shoal draft for anchoring, the wing keel is stiff enough but is an issue in mud, I feel it adds stability downwind. The shoal draft is at a disadvantage upwind but as I’m cruising hasn’t been an issue

[keepondancin]

My only new boat, a 1984, I think, Catalina 34 had a winged keel. It sailed very much like the standard keel version. I liked the shoal draft for obvious reason. The problem I experienced was anchored in calm conditions, with light wind against current, tide change, the rope rhode wrapped around the keel several times, and was a bit of a challenge to get it untangled. I miss the days you could buy a new boat for $60k.