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Old 20-09-2013, 17:44   #241
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Or does it prove that the ferry skippers are usually capable of not running into sailboats? Raku, you seem to be imagining things, rather than understanding the realities of some situations. Do the math: in some cases you may not be "capable of staying clear of ferries". This may have been one of those cases -- I don't know.

Paul, you seem to b ignoring some things, rather than undertanding the realities of some situations, YOU do the math. for FIFTY YEARS this man managed to avoid getting his boat all crunched up by a ferry or some other big boat.

On this day he did not manage that. We don't know why yet. YOU are also guessing and imagining -- that "this may have been one of those cases -- I don't know."

So unless my speculations match your speculation, I don't understand the reality of some situations? Did that make you feel good? Because I know how it made you look: "Oh oh oh is it too late to enter the pissing contest?"
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Old 20-09-2013, 17:48   #242
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by frank_f View Post
The Julia is cutting right through the pack.

This is like NASCAR for boats.
LOL,
That's a slow tanker, go further NE to Dover and watch the quick blue ones cut across at twice her speed.
I have been on the hydrofoil ferries and thought it was great, seeing it all happen on live AIS feed [and that's not all the yachts] gives me a very different perspective, I dips me lid to all who do that regularly.
I shall now enjoy Port Jackson even more, ferry wake and all. LOL
Well maybe not the ferry wakes.
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Old 20-09-2013, 17:48   #243
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Or does it prove that the ferry skippers are usually capable of not running into sailboats? Raku, you seem to be imagining things, rather than understanding the realities of some situations. Do the math: in some cases you may not be "capable of staying clear of ferries". This may have been one of those cases -- I don't know.
Quite so. The fact that a ferry moving around 25 knots ran over this fellow in a sailboat would seem to indicate that the ferry wasn't paying attention. These are my waters. There was plenty of room to avoid the sailboat, which I observe ferries doing every summer day in the more crowded channels. It's why they put rudders on them you know - for steering around things. And if this ferry wasn't paying attention, what on earth would trying to scurry out of the way do to help? You'd as easily scurry under her bow as away from it.

Honestly, sometimes on these forums if you ask what time it is, someone with nothing better to do will present themselves as an expert on watches, then pick a fight over the best manufacturing technique, just to show how smart they are.
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Old 20-09-2013, 17:50   #244
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Paul, you seem to b ignoring some things, rather than undertanding the realities of some situations, YOU do the math. for FIFTY YEARS this man managed to avoid getting his boat all crunched up by a ferry or some other big boat.

On this day he did not manage that. We don't know why yet.
Yes we do. The ferry ran over him.
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Old 20-09-2013, 17:56   #245
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For newcomers to sailing who are reading this thread, please recognize that ad hoc action such as simply staying out of the way are not, I repeat NOT the safe action. Those who are advocating it are inviting dangerous and illegal behavior. If you're going to be operating in an area especially with larger ships, make sure you know the COLREGS cold. Those larger ships are depending on other traffic to understand what the rules of the road, or this case the sea, are. In fact, most of your fellow sailors are also.

It is great to have a debate of when and how COLREGS apply, however it is dangerous to advocate to ignore them.

Please do yourself a favor and listen to those that have experience, especially in the areas with heavier traffic.

Those were advocating an ad hoc manner of operation, are doing no one any favors. It would be a mistake to listen to them. They do not understand and are not talking from experience.
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:06   #246
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Quite so. The fact that a ferry moving around 25 knots ran over this fellow in a sailboat would seem to indicate that the ferry wasn't paying attention. These are my waters. There was plenty of room to avoid the sailboat, which I observe ferries doing every summer day in the more crowded channels. It's why they put rudders on them you know - for steering around things. And if this ferry wasn't paying attention, what on earth would trying to scurry out of the way do to help? You'd as easily scurry under her bow as away from it.

Honestly, sometimes on these forums if you ask what time it is, someone with nothing better to do will present themselves as an expert on watches, then pick a fight over the best manufacturing technique, just to show how smart they are.

You've got it! That's why I'm calling it a pissing contest.

We just don't know. Maybe it's the ferry captain's fault. If the skipper of the sailboat had his head buried in his electronics, then he's partially at fault.

Did anyone hear five warning blasts from the ferry? If not, I think it's possible that somehow the sailboat ended up out of the ferry captain's sight lines.

Don't roast me for making a guess, though, because that's all it was. Blaming the ferry captain is also a guess. No one has walked into a courtroom, put their hand on the Bible, claimed to be an expert and then tried to influence the outcome of all of this.

I think at some point people get too old to operate boats, just as they get too old to drive. I believe I know someone who shouldn't be doing either, but even an accident with his grandchildren in the car hasn't stopped him. He just bought a new car. My own grandmother drove long after she should have stopped.

But we don't know that about the sailboat skipper either.

It's all guesses.
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:06   #247
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I'm so sorry you don't recognize speculation when you read it. It's a GUESS. I SAID it's a guess. What is the matter with you?
"I believe the man who lost his boat has managed to do exactly that for 50 years, and for whatever reason, he had a *really serious* lapse of attention at just the wrong time. Unfortunately for him I think there's no excuse. I think he may have been out of the ferry captain's scope of concern, and his boat shifted direction while he was looking at the electronics, and by the time he was in the path of danger the ferry captain couldn't even see him. That's what I think happened.

I'm not going to pound on it but that's what I think happened. I think the sailboat moved into a collision course in a way that made the collision inevitable."
End quote.. cut and paste.. NO editing by me.

Wrong with me?
The above quote sounds like a firm opinion to me NOT speculation, perhaps you do not know the difference?
What part of the above extract is couched in speculative terms?
It does seem to me you have made up your mind and are quite clear on what happened, it is all printed in English by you.
Have a nice day now,
Mac
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:09   #248
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

So if he was in fact at the wheel, but was sleeping would you call that being on Watch? When driving a car and texting, are you still in control of the car, even though you are setting at the wheel.

It's very simple, piloting requires your full attention to the control of the vessel, car, or airplane, other wise you are not in control, therby not piloting.

Taking your eyes off the controls, and visual course is not in control...you may as well be below decks sleeping.

Clearly, the man piloting this sail boat...was not in fact piloting...even though he was at the wheel.

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry he was at the wheel in the wheel house!

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Old 20-09-2013, 18:10   #249
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
"I believe the man who lost his boat has managed to do exactly that for 50 years, and for whatever reason, he had a *really serious* lapse of attention at just the wrong time. Unfortunately for him I think there's no excuse. I think he may have been out of the ferry captain's scope of concern, and his boat shifted direction while he was looking at the electronics, and by the time he was in the path of danger the ferry captain couldn't even see him. That's what I think happened.

I'm not going to pound on it but that's what I think happened. I think the sailboat moved into a collision course in a way that made the collision inevitable."
End quote.. cut and paste.. NO editing by me.

Wrong with me?
The above quote sounds like a firm opinion to me NOT speculation, perhaps you do not know the difference?
What part of the above extract is couched in speculative terms?
It does seem to me you have made up your mind and are quite clear on what happened, it is all printed in English by you.
Have a nice day now,
Mac

Wow -- you read all that and missed the first two words? Or English isn't your first language, so you didn't realize that "I believe" actually indicates a guess in casual concersation?

Perhaps YOU do not know the difference. The first two words, by the way, couched EVERYTHING that followed.

You, on the other hand, are dissembling. You SAY "It does seem to me," but you means something far more definite.

Clearly your mind is made up, and I bet you will have a nice day now, because you think you've put me in my place good and proper.

Thank you for not editing what I said, because that's what proves you to be the one making the harsh judgment, not me. I'm GUESSING. And, I think you knew it. I BELIEVE you just don't want the skipper of the sailboat to be significantly in the wrong, and I sympathize with that, but ...

you need to be open to all the possibilities.

Nice try, but you are the one over-interpreting.
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:17   #250
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
So if he was in fact at the wheel, but was sleeping would you call that being on Watch? When driving a car and texting, are you still in control of the car, even though you are setting at the wheel.

It's very simple, piloting requires your full attention to the control of the vessel, car, or airplane, other wise you are not in control, therby not piloting.

Taking your eyes off the controls, and visual course is not in control...you may as well be below decks sleeping.

Clearly, the man piloting this sail boat...was not in fact piloting...even though he was at the wheel.

Lloyd


In fact all the electronic gadgets can be distracting, especially when new.

At the end of our sail school, club members open their boats to the newly graduated students and take them out for an evening sail. It's always a lot of fun.

Last time I did it, I had a couple of women who took the class because their husbands wanted them to, but they just hadn't "taken" to it. But there was one fellow who was eager to see how everything on my boat worked.

As we were coming back into the marina, he was steering the boat through the red and green markers. I had showed him how they show up on the chart plotter, and he was mesmerized by it. I had the spotlight out, and shined it on the green one, and said "Where's the red?"

He actually pointed to the chart plotter, not the water. I grabbed the wheel and steered us away from the red channel marker, and told him -- "Don't fall in love with your chart plotter."

I took the boat the rest of the way in. He was a great guy. That was his first time seeing the markers at night, and everything looks different at night. He was even seeing them from a different height as my boat is "tall" for its size and the little Catalinas they learn on are low. He didn't do anything wrong except never help sail a bigger boat before, and not have sailed at night before, but people can really be sucked in looking at the electronics.

We'll have to see what the inquiry finds.
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:20   #251
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

Shouldn't sound signals play a role here? They are mentioned in the Colregs.
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:20   #252
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
I've watched the ferries and wondered (to myself) "how the hell would you get out of the way of that?"
While sailing in to Eagle Harbor we watched a couple kayakers suddenly discover how quickly they could paddle when the ferry started blasting her horn at them...

I used to ride the ferries daily and it's amazing how many people put themselves right in the path of these humongous vessels. It was a bad situation, but, seriously, why would anyone stop watching the water even for a minute while out on Puget Sound? Even when you don't have ferries there are tankers, navy vessels, submarines, fishing boats, sailboats, kayakers......
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:21   #253
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
For newcomers to sailing who are reading this thread, please recognize that ad hoc action such as simply staying out of the way are not, I repeat NOT the safe action. Those who are advocating it are inviting dangerous and illegal behavior. If you're going to be operating in an area especially with larger ships, make sure you know the COLREGS cold. Those larger ships are depending on other traffic to understand what the rules of the road, or this case the sea, are. In fact, most of your fellow sailors are also.

It is great to have a debate of when and how COLREGS apply, however it is dangerous to advocate to ignore them.

Please do yourself a favor and listen to those that have experience, especially in the areas with heavier traffic.

Those were advocating an ad hoc manner of operation, are doing no one any favors. It would be a mistake to listen to them. They do not understand and are not talking from experience.

I'm sorry but you're being silly. Yes, silly.

NO ONE advocated any kind of "ad hoc" behavior. I know you're referring to me, by the way ... but that is your misinterpretation, and NOT what I have said (unless you take things I have said out of context).

I said I would stay clear of the ferry to begin with. There's NOTHING ad hoc about that. There's nothing in the colregs stating that the sailboat MUST put herself on a collision course and THEN apply colregs to the situation.

You're being silly. I think it's hysterical that now you think you need to 'warn' people about other people. It's so easy to act badly on line, isn't it?
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:23   #254
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Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Wow -- you read all that and missed the first two words? Or English isn't your first language, so you didn't realize that "I believe" actually indicates a guess in casual concersation?

Perhaps YOU do not know the difference. The first two words, by the way, couched EVERYTHING that followed.

You, on the other hand, are dissembling. You SAY "It does seem to me," but you means something far more definite.

Clearly your mind is made up, and I bet you will have a nice day now, because you think you've put me in my place good and proper.

Thank you for not editing what I said, because that's what proves you to be the one making the harsh judgment, not me. I'm GUESSING. And, I think you knew it. I BELIEVE you just don't want the skipper of the sailboat to be significantly in the wrong, and I sympathize with that, but ...

you need to be open to all the possibilities.

Nice try, but you are the one over-interpreting.
Just to refresh your memory here is the unedited cut and paste of the first part of your rant...

"Actually it's been mentioned, although not quoted (thank you). That is the situation where I live. Tampa Bay is quite shallow, and so is the Gulf of Mexico, especially within, say, 25 miles of shore in most places. A very specific channel has been cut for freighters and cruise liners. That actually makes it easier because you know exactly where that big boat is going to be, because if it doesn't, it's going to run aground. There is absolutely no doubt that those freighters and cruise ships are the stand-on vessels. They have nowhere to go except through that channel.

I'm not sure the path for the ferry was that cut and dried in the accident that started this discussion. Nevertheless, something went very wrong that day, and it's the little boat that's going to sink, not the big one. I could be wrong, but I believe I am capable of staying clear of ferries. The guy who lost his boat must also be capable of it, since apparently he sailed those waters for fifty years. I think it was so familiar to him that he didn't think about it being a poor choice to get so involved with his electronics where he was. For fifty years he was somehow able to stay out of those ferries' way, and I believe I would be able to do the same thing -- under sail or under power. It's not rocket science.

This has all been a giant pissing contest to try to prove that some people "know the colregs" better than others. A tremendous amount of ego has been involved. To me it reminds me of tin soldiers marching around. Behavior counts as much as seamanship. I'm not going to stand on my little 31' sailboat and announce "I'm the stand on vessel -- YOU MOVE." I'm going to get out of the way, and YES, I will do it in a timely way so I do not end up under that freighter's bow. "

Please re-read it and highlight where you said you were "guessing" or "speculating".
Or apologise?
I am having a nice day.
Mac
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Old 20-09-2013, 18:25   #255
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pirate Re: What can happen when you cut off a ferry

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post


In fact all the electronic gadgets can be distracting, especially when new.

At the end of our sail school, club members open their boats to the newly graduated students and take them out for an evening sail. It's always a lot of fun.

Last time I did it, I had a couple of women who took the class because their husbands wanted them to, but they just hadn't "taken" to it. But there was one fellow who was eager to see how everything on my boat worked.

As we were coming back into the marina, he was steering the boat through the red and green markers. I had showed him how they show up on the chart plotter, and he was mesmerized by it. I had the spotlight out, and shined it on the green one, and said "Where's the red?"

He actually pointed to the chart plotter, not the water. I grabbed the wheel and steered us away from the red channel marker, and told him -- "Don't fall in love with your chart plotter."

I took the boat the rest of the way in. He was a great guy. That was his first time seeing the markers at night, and everything looks different at night. He was even seeing them from a different height as my boat is "tall" for its size and the little Catalinas they learn on are low. He didn't do anything wrong except never help sail a bigger boat before, and not have sailed at night before, but people can really be sucked in looking at the electronics.

We'll have to see what the inquiry finds.
As a matter of curiosity.. why did you need to shine the spot on the green buoy...
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