Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

[gaucho]

Originally Posted by slowpoker

and threatened everyone, including us here in the U.S.A. with nuclear missiles from the Soviets in exchange for power for their terrible regime.

Oh well, because the US and NATO don't have THE BIGGEST ARSENAL ever pointed at everyone they don't like. Im all for having discussions and conversations; please do have SOME MINIMAL global viewpoint. The whole capitalism=good, communism=bad, so we can obliterate anyone we want but the "others" are bad argument is the most stupid thing you could argue.

Cuba (and the revolution) took the opportunity (and they were very opportunistic) of being allied together with the USSR at a point when ICMBs didn't exist as we know them today. Having missiles in Cuba for the USSR was akin to the hundreds of sites all over eastern europe that could strike the USSR. Balance of power, simple as that. In the Cold War there is no ONE hero and one BAD guy. There's two equally agressive and stupid countries behind it (US and USSR). The missiles in Cuba were a "balancing act". When long range ICBMs were available, that proved to be more of a moot point. You really need to look at history from a less simplistic approach. It will help you to understand stuff better. Maybe then you can understand how there was a clear setup for "The Revolution" to brew.

Originally Posted by slowpoker

If I did, it would break my heart to see what social justice and communism has done to the good memories I still have of my birthplace

Maybe you should go. And talk to people. And be open to understand not everyone HAS to think exactly like you. Some people do believe in different social systems.

Originally Posted by slowpoker

and rot even your very soul and God turns away from where He is not welcomed.
America; Bless God!.

God, the ultimate cynical solution to the problems of the world. Good ole history helps a bit more than God when it comes to politics, countries, wars and human nature.

Jeez.

[Formosa Scott]

Originally Posted by gaucho

And be open to understand not everyone HAS to think exactly like you.

Or you.

[gaucho]

Originally Posted by Formosa Scott

Or you.

The difference is I do not impose on other countries what their political/social system should be (as the US has tried to do for the last 50 years). Get it?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Quote:
José Azel, a Senior Research Associate at the Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies, University of Miami and the author of the recently published book, Mañana in Cuba (Tomorrow in Cuba) took a different view:

"Currently over 190 nations engage economically and politically with Cuba while the United States remains alone in enforcing its economic sanctions policy. If indeed U.S. policy is deemed as one case of failure to change the nature of the Cuban government, there are 190 cases of failure on the same grounds. By a preponderance of evidence (190 to 1) the case can be made that engagement with that regime has been a dismal failure."
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._Cuban_embargo

Ok... that's one guy, a Cuban exile, and and that's a fairly simplistic analysis. And it kind of hides reality with numbers: that one holdout is the world's largest superpower, the closest large country to Cuba, and historically its largest trade partner. Also, when the US is against something... it's not that wise to defy it. So these engagements are arguably less intense than if the US was onside.

This doesn't prove whether engagement would have, or will work, of course.

From the same article:

According to the United States Chamber of Commerce, the embargo is currently costing the United States economy $1.2 billion per year due to the legal structures that are preventing U.S. based exporters from entering Cuban markets.[36] The Cuba Policy Foundation (CPF) has provided more extreme data. Their estimates put the cost that the embargo has had on the U.S. at $4.84 billion per year while costing Cuba $685 million per year.[3] As of today, Cuba is estimated to have lost over $28.6 billion in trade according to Cuba's Institute of Economic Research.[37]
Between 1954 and 1958, trade between Cuba and the United States was at a higher level than what it is today. 65% of Cuba's total exports were sent to the United States while imports from the U.S. totaled to 74% percent of Cuba's international purchases. After the formal implementation of the embargo and the passage of Proclamation 3355, there was a 95% decrease in Cuba's sugar quota, which canceled roughly 700,000 tons of the 3,119,655 tons previously allotted to the United States.[38] A year later, Cuba's sugar quota was reduced to zero when President Eisenhower issued Proclamation 3383. This substantially effected Cuba's total exports as Cuba was one of the world's leading sugar exporters at the time.[38]

(so Tetepare ... it's costing the US tens of billions to try to collect on a 60 year-old alleged debt of $7B. Does this seem sensible?)

The US embargo is a big hurt on Cuba (and a small but not insignificant hurt on the US)... and hasn't led to change - EXCEPT that the Cubans had to rely on enemies of the US as patron states, and to try to make do with less. In the same article, it's argued that the US embargo HELPS the current regime stay in power, by demonstrating to Cubans that the US is still the enemy.

If there's genuine interest in improving the lot of Cubans, and forcing the government to open up... maybe something else should be tried. That 'something' will probably be politically easier in both countries when Raul Castro finally exits the frame, and everyone can say that the Castro era is now over.

[Formosa Scott]

Originally Posted by gaucho

The difference is I do not impose on other countries what their political/social system should be (as the US has tried to do for the last 50 years). Get it?

I guess you didn't get the irony of your telling a expatriated Cuban that he is wrong, then telling him that everyone doesn't have to think the same way while giving snide responses to people that don't agree with you?


Get it now?

[windhorze]

yes, I am/was planning a trip there in Nov., I got a month off approved on Wed and Frump made his announcement on Fri...we shall see...

[windhorze]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Never heard of an actual siezure, nor jail time, just fines.

curious, what, when, where and why...oh and "how much" have you actually heard of first hand...something more trustworthy than urban legend hopefully...

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by gaucho

Oh well, because the US and NATO don't have THE BIGGEST ARSENAL ever pointed at everyone they don't like. Im all for having discussions and conversations; please do have SOME MINIMAL global viewpoint. The whole capitalism=good, communism=bad, so we can obliterate anyone we want but the "others" are bad argument is the most stupid thing you could argue.

Cuba (and the revolution) took the opportunity (and they were very opportunistic) of being allied together with the USSR at a point when ICMBs didn't exist as we know them today. Having missiles in Cuba for the USSR was akin to the hundreds of sites all over eastern europe that could strike the USSR. Balance of power, simple as that. In the Cold War there is no ONE hero and one BAD guy. There's two equally agressive and stupid countries behind it (US and USSR). The missiles in Cuba were a "balancing act". When long range ICBMs were available, that proved to be more of a moot point. You really need to look at history from a less simplistic approach. It will help you to understand stuff better. Maybe then you can understand how there was a clear setup for "The Revolution" to brew.



Maybe you should go. And talk to people. And be open to understand not everyone HAS to think exactly like you. Some people do believe in different social systems.



God, the ultimate cynical solution to the problems of the world. Good ole history helps a bit more than God when it comes to politics, countries, wars and human nature.

Jeez.

I visited Cuba 10 years ago. What a shocker to see the idiocy of total socialism. Its a huge prison where you have to order your toilet paper 6 weeks in advance from a govt store. IDIOTCY!

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by slowpoker

I certainly agree with Tetepare's post # 109 and Dotdun's post # 112.
Speaking as an expatriate of Cuba since 1961 and long being a U.S. Citizen by choice and His Grace, I can say:
Cuba has always been a very rich country with natural resources and very wonderful, great people raised with the culture, customs, language and religion of the Spaniards.
Also had been guided by their Constitution which was worded from our own US Constitution but discarded since 1959.
Many leaders, through the centuries, have been taking advantage of and pilfering the island and it's great and friendly people. General Batista was a military shark and a murderer toward his opponents, but allowed the population live and thrive and was toppled by communist demons, the Kastro brothers and a few illustrious killers like Che Guevara that took from and raped everything and threatened everyone, including us here in the U.S.A. with nuclear missiles from the Soviets in exchange for power for their terrible regime.
This Kastro gang has stolen, not just hard earned property from the Cuban population and the U.S. corporations, but even the very souls of their own people; brainwashing them with their sick ideology, taking their labor, their savings, their religion and their freedoms to speak or learn truth, separating families and killing their ideological opponents. Kuba even has trained soldiers all over South America, Angola, Africa and many others and infiltrated spies to fight our brave US troops, for the mere hate and contempt the Kastros gang have for our us, the Americans...... Why should we be friendly to the Kastros when they still want to kill us?
Yes, Cuba had always traded with the whole world when they were free, and still now trades (or takes advantage of) most countries that choose to ignore Kuba's hate.
Our trading with them or not will not fix Kuba or help their population.
Our dollars would, through their tentacles, end up in the hands of the militia, which with more money and power, will oppress the population even more as they always do when Kuba enjoys better economic times. More US tourist dollars actually hurt their people by having more police enforcing their communistic rules.
Kuba even hates their own people that have left their island hell, even as a child.
The Kastro gang will not allow me to visit Kuba, as a Cuban or even as a U.S. Citizen, on a private owned boat.
It's not our president here that has cut off my visit there. I could go on a cruise ship or fly commercial to visit. ( If I did, it would break my heart to see what social justice and communism has done to the good memories I still have of my birthplace).
It is the wicked hate of the Kastros gang that keeps Kuba from being Cuba, America from being friendly neighbors with them because Kuba wants us dead and for almost 60 years, their citizens remain oppressed and in deep sadness.
So, don't blame the U.S. for the embargo or blockade. Our money will only corrupt their evil gang even more; ask the people in the know there, that have experienced the increased policing when any new opportunities were available to them from time to time.
If all those 'helpful' countries that trade with Kuba would have followed our example of staying away from those threatening, dangerous devils; Kuba would have been, long ago, once again free and friendly towards us and we could cruise there any time we wanted.
Be careful...bad ideology, communism and socialism destroy everyone's freedoms and rot even your very soul and God turns away from where He is not welcomed.
America; Bless God!.

Thank you Sir!

[DeepFrz]

geoleo, what you saw was the result of western isolationism. After the Soviet Union collapsed Russia was not able to support Cuba and the US left the trade embargo in tact. Had the US reached out and befriended the people of Cuba and allowed them to trade freely with the world there would have been a marked difference in the lives of the Cuban people. For ideological reasons the US would not do that. The captains of capitalism would not allow it.

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by gaucho

The difference is I do not impose on other countries what their political/social system should be (as the US has tried to do for the last 50 years). Get it?

Funny how you choose to word that to further your argument, but not shopping with Cuba is not IMPOSING anything on them. They remain free to murder their citizens any time they wish, while we don't spend money there.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

geoleo, what you saw was the result of western isolationism. After the Soviet Union collapsed Russia was not able to support Cuba and the US left the trade embargo in tact. Had the US reached out and befriended the people of Cuba and allowed them to trade freely with the world there would have been a marked difference in the lives of the Cuban people. For ideological reasons the US would not do that. The captains of capitalism would not allow it.

Pure supposition!

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Madwand

Funny how you choose to word that to further your argument, but not shopping with Cuba is not IMPOSING anything on them. They remain free to murder their citizens any time they wish, while we don't spend money there.

It's kind of hypocritical for the US to deny Cuba its single most natural and important trading relationship, and armtwist companies and countries into also withholding trade... then pointing to Cuba as an example of how centrally planned economies always fail.

If you're genuinely interested in the plight of the Cuban people, and not just holding a 60 year grudge over the revolution and Bay of Pigs, you would engage more with Cuba, not less.

For an example of how this works... see China.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

geoleo, what you saw was the result of western isolationism. After the Soviet Union collapsed Russia was not able to support Cuba and the US left the trade embargo in tact. Had the US reached out and befriended the people of Cuba and allowed them to trade freely with the world there would have been a marked difference in the lives of the Cuban people. For ideological reasons the US would not do that. The captains of capitalism would not allow it.

IMO - This is true. The irony is that if we had not isolated them financially they would have probably been forced to drop Socialism a long time ago. If socialism is such the major failure that capitalists know it to be then they should just let nature take its course and let it fail on its own but it doesn't do so without some help. It's not socialism they worry about, its demagoguery and dictatorship.

I know Exxon and the rest of the big boys are chomping at the bit to get into those vast oil reserves. As soon as Tillerson is able to help his buddies out we will see Cuba open back up again.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by zboss

IMO - This is true. The irony is that if we had not isolated them financially they would have probably been forced to drop Socialism a long time ago. If socialism is such the major failure that capitalists know it to be then they should just let nature take its course and let it fail on its own but it doesn't do so without some help. It's not socialism they worry about, its demagoguery and dictatorship.

Have to disagree with the last part; global capitalists will go ANYWHERE there's a buck to be made, no questions asked. They are only constrained by laws, and in this case, embargoes.