Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It's kind of hypocritical for the US to deny Cuba its single most natural and important trading relationship, and armtwist companies and countries into also withholding trade... then pointing to Cuba as an example of how centrally planned economies always fail.

For an example of how this works... see China.

I disagree with the embargo, but making illogical arguments isn't helping either. In a communist country, the people will remain enslaved while the government takes in the cash, no matter who trades with them. If America were trading with Cuba, average Cubans would be no wealthier, while Castro would.

What's China a fine example of? How we are complicit in their human rights violations by supporting their economy that keeps the sweat shops open?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Madwand

I disagree with the embargo, but making illogical arguments isn't helping either. In a communist country, the people will remain enslaved while the government takes in the cash, no matter who trades with them. If America were trading with Cuba, average Cubans would be no wealthier, while Castro would.

What's China a fine example of? How we are complicit in their human rights violations by supporting their economy that keeps the sweat shops open?

(well, that's the hypocrisy part...)

China is an example of a communist, totalitarian country with whom the US decided to trade with, and a sort of capitalism has blossomed, and it's arguable that the lot of the average Chinese person has improved. Though it's still a totalitarian regime, and the amount of human rights violations they still engage in makes Cuba's seem like a rounding error.

Cuba, being smaller, poorer, closer, less developed... would be that much more malleable by trade than China ever was. We already know that 60 years of sitting on Cuba's face has not produced regime change; it has simply caused economic hardship for the average Cubans. Time to try something different?

[Madwand]

But it hasn't caused anyone hardship. You assume the average Cuban would be better off if America sent billions of dollars to Castro's bank account.

[DeepFrz]

When the Soviet Union supported Cuba it had renowned medical and educational systems. Free school and university, great health care and they even sent doctors to Central and South American countries to assist and train the medical practitioners in those countries. This enraged US officials. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union the Medical and Educational systems in Cuba have collapsed. How has this helped the Cuban people?

I have met and talked with, in Cuba, US citizens who sailed there for the free health care that they could not get in their home country. Of course they had to make up the story of where they had been injured...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Madwand

But it hasn't caused anyone hardship.

You actually believe the Cuban embargo hasn't caused profound economic hardship for everyone in Cuba?

You assume the average Cuban would be better off if America sent billions of dollars to Castro's bank account.

You assume (wrongly) that trade wouldn't benefit the average Cuban. It's worked in China and in some other less than democratic regimes that the US trades with. Why is Cuba different?

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You actually believe the Cuban embargo hasn't caused profound economic hardship for everyone in Cuba?
You assume (wrongly) that trade wouldn't benefit the average Cuban. It's worked in China and in some other less than democratic regimes that the US trades with. Why is Cuba different?

Big difference! In China trade is, and always has been, negotiated by, and the money flow is corporation to corporation (albeit, with lots of government rules). In Cuba the negotiation and money flow is only with the government as they own everything. You are only hoping the Cuban government will allow some money to trickle down to the commoner, but there is no guarantee or clear path that will happen.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

When the Soviet Union supported Cuba it had renowned medical and educational systems. Free school and university, great health care and they even sent doctors to Central and South American countries to assist and train the medical practitioners in those countries. This enraged US officials. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union the Medical and Educational systems in Cuba have collapsed. How has this helped the Cuban people?

I have met and talked with, in Cuba, US citizens who sailed there for the free health care that they could not get in their home country. Of course they had to make up the story of where they had been injured...

And you believe the Soviet Union did this for humanitarian reasons? Hmm, I wonder what their motive was?

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

When the Soviet Union supported Cuba it had renowned medical and educational systems. Free school and university, great health care and they even sent doctors to Central and South American countries to assist and train the medical practitioners in those countries. This enraged US officials. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union the Medical and Educational systems in Cuba have collapsed. How has this helped the Cuban people?

I have met and talked with, in Cuba, US citizens who sailed there for the free health care that they could not get in their home country. Of course they had to make up the story of where they had been injured...

There was a time when Cuba was treating cancer with shark cartilage. Difficult to get that treatment in the US.

When Fidel was dying, he got doctors from Spain.

[Madwand]

You're making the same assumptions since there has been no trade with Cuba, and Cuba is not China. Cuban government owns the businesses and allows the workers to have a piece of the pie. Why do you assume their piece would increase? Because Castro is not greedy? EDIT: I read Dotdun's reply after i wrote this...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Big difference! In China trade is, and always has been, negotiated by, and the money flow is corporation to corporation (albeit, with lots of government rules).

China was fully a command, centrally-planned economy, everything state-owned... the full Marxist... and it wasn't until they were comfortable with renewed trade that they loosened up and started to permit some privatization.

"corporation to corporation" - just about all Chinese corporations started as state-owned and controlled, and the state still has a big piece of the most important ones.

In Cuba the negotiation and money flow is only with the government as they own everything. You are only hoping the Cuban government will allow some money to trickle down to the commoner, but there is no guarantee or clear path that will happen.

Yes I'm deeply reassured that you know exactly how Cuba is organized and run. Not.

All these excuses to back a failed policy.

[DeepFrz]

Dotdun: You are only hoping the Cuban government will allow some money to trickle down to the commoner, but there is no guarantee or clear path that will happen.

Kind of like Reaganomics.

Dotdun: And you believe the Soviet Union did this for humanitarian reasons? Hmm, I wonder what their motive was?
DotDun is online now Report Post

My comment was about Cuba, not Soviet Union other than the Soviet Union supported Cuba, whatever the reason.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

China was fully a command, centrally-planned economy, everything state-owned... the full Marxist... and it wasn't until they were comfortable with renewed trade that they loosened up and started to permit some privatization.

"corporation to corporation" - just about all Chinese corporations started as state-owned and controlled, and the state still has a big piece of the most important ones.



Yes I'm deeply reassured that you know exactly how Cuba is organized and run. Not.

All these excuses to back a failed policy.

And Canada's policy toward Cuba has helped how?

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by DotDun

And Canada's policy toward Cuba has helped how?

Other than giving the people some jobs and pumping a little money into the Cuban economy I have no idea. Has it harmed?

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Kind of like Reaganomics.



My comment was about Cuba, not Soviet Union other than the Soviet Union supported Cuba, whatever the reason.

Hmm, must have missed the Cuban change to Reaganomics-like policy.

the economic policies of the former US president Ronald Reagan, associated especially with the reduction of taxes and the promotion of unrestricted free-market activity.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Other than giving the people some jobs and pumping a little money into the Cuban economy I have no idea. Has it harmed?

So you have no idea whether your own country's actions towards Cuba has helped, but you want the US to join you in that policy?

Instead of complaining what the US policy towards Cuba is or isn't, why not step up the Canadian support of Cuba?