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Old 20-06-2017, 18:01   #106
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
What do your Cuban expat friends think should happen? What are their expectations? Asking seriously.
Since you asked that question, I'll answer as a resident of South Florida, the area with the most Cubans. I'd say the thoughts are generational largely. The older generations are split and many are in favor of maintaining a hardline policy. The younger generations and the children and grandchildren of those who came here largely are ready to move on. One of the questions is do we live in the past and base our decisions on the past or do we move forward.

This thread was really started about boating and that picture is definitely taking a negative turn. Understand, land visitors are only inconvenienced as they still will go. Limiting visitors by water has little overall impact, but a lot to those of us thinking of going. We weren't going to make a statement, but simply to see the country and meet the people. Limiting that has no real effect on the government or the political battle.

I see words tossed around like restore a democracy. That somehow conveys the view that people are automatically better off in democracy's. Unfortunately that isn't true. We changed the government in Haiti, but how are Haitians doing? Democratic elections in Venezuela up until 2014 did little for the country. Now, the US is really in no position to pull the moral flag or human rights flag out unless or until we start to apply those stances across all countries. We selectively choose them.

To the world's problems, I don't have an answer, but right now we're on high alarm in the US and much of Europe over terrorism. Yet, there are attacks every day and in 2017 there have been 591 attacks and 4001 fatalities. In 2016, there were 1,441 attacks and 14,356.

We talk about human rights and yet have repeatedly allied ourselves with countries around the world that ignore the rights of various parts of their population completely.

If we want to help the Cuban people, we open things completely, we provide tourism and it builds jobs, we do other trade. Would it also help a dictator in Castro who we don't like? Of course. I just try to not think of him and think instead of a country of good people.

I hoped to meet many of them and now that's all on hold. I don't travel to other countries to meet the President or Dictator, but to see the country and the people.

The harder stances we take with Cuba or any country, the more likely we are to see retaliatory moves against our country or it's people, especially when visiting. I can still go to Cuba under a valid reason, but until things settle down a bit and I see how they turn out, my plans to travel there are suspended.
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Old 21-06-2017, 06:35   #107
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

"Maybe... you should try for detente with Cuba, then? According to you, it's worked before." LakeEffect


I have never opposed detente with Cuba but there must be a quid pro quo for negotiations to begin: more freedoms for the Cuban people, more openness in their government, freeing political dissidents in jail, serious conversations concerning expatriates property rights(as was accomplished in the former East Germany), etc. otherwise we have only empty words from the Cuban leadership and no real change. This has been the problem for the last 60 years with the Castro brothers. They are all "take" and no "give." We do not need any more "bad deals" by our government as we witnessed during the last eight years under Obama. Embargos do work and the testament is that despite limited Canadian and European tourism and practically zero manufacturing, the Communist Cuban government no longer has the support of Hugo, the Russians and the Chinese(to any great extent) to prop up their Third World economy . . . I use economy in the loosest sense of that word. So, when you say the Cuban people are hurting, you're blaming the kid with the ball who doesn't want to play because the rules are crooked and favor his opponents. What's the point? Sadly, this subject has been, once again, thoroughly exhausted and I will now turn my attention to more pressing issues such as Anchor Wars or Mono's vs. Cats. . . now there's some discussion, huh? Good luck and safe sailing.
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Old 21-06-2017, 07:31   #108
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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I have never opposed detente with Cuba but there must be a quid pro quo for negotiations to begin: more freedoms for the Cuban people, more openness in their government, freeing political dissidents in jail, serious conversations concerning expatriates property rights(as was accomplished in the former East Germany), etc.
Why don't you ask for a pony, too?

That's not detente, that's capitulation. Surrender. East Germany surrendered, and was consumed whole.

The things you list aren't detente preconditions, those are the goals of detente and negotiation; things that will only be accomplished through dialogue and the building of trust.
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Old 21-06-2017, 08:14   #109
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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The only thing you'd accept is the complete overthrow of the Castro regime. And you're willing to impoverish and starve the Cubans til you get it. Nice.

I find this topic fascinating because the US-Cuba-Global situation is a demonstration of the immaturity (not meant in a bad way) of human politics at the national level, and also brings into it the desires and responsibilities at a human level. I like the topic because I don't have an answer to it (whereas I have an answer to most other issues.)

I also find sad humor in it. Lake Effect states that "you" (which I take to mean all of: the original writer, me, and USA) are willing to starve Cubans.

Now, I'm at a loss why USA is to blame for starving Cubans. Last I knew shipping from Canada and Germany to Cuba was fully legal, and both countries are food producers. Why is USA always to blame? Why not blame...the Cuban government? Why not blame Canada which can ship more food there? Noooo, always the big bad brother's fault.

I question how full, open relations can make a huge difference in Cuba. After all, Canada, China, Russia, and EU are fully welcome- and capable- of making all the investment they want to. Granted, there would be an increase in tourism with US, but come on, will that change an entire economy? Americans can go to Jamaica, and that's still a shiphole of poverty, corruption, and crime.

Is the fact that I, as a cruiser, might want to enjoy Cuba because it's "new" and different sufficient reason to cry and complain about US policy? And if US allowed free and open access to Cuba by sailors, would Cuba be such the hotspot in 20 or 30 years? Or would the new spot be somewhere else, somewhere generally unaccessible? Would it ultimately make a bit of difference whether I go, don't go, go legally, or sneak in?

I don't think USA can save Cuba. I question why it's my fault, and USA's fault that Cuba is depressed when there are 192 other countries and the Vatican that can do something other than blame and complain.

In USA we have this "Big Brothers" thing where non-parent adult role models guide youths at risk. Maybe we should do that with countries too. Who wants Cuba? Canada! You step up! Germany, you get Greece. I suggest USA can go clean up Mexico. How would that work? Canada, you want to take care of Cuba? Or just complain that the US isn't babysitting everyone?

Cuba has to solve its own problems. Like an alcoholic, Cuba's government has to admit there's a problem, and has to be willing to change. No amount of investment or spending or meddling by USA will change that.

I don't have an answer how to "fix" Cuba or the current situation. But I know what won't work, and crying and complaining and blaming USA is top on that list.
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Old 21-06-2017, 08:42   #110
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

When we were in a marina bus going to the port authority's office in Colon, Panama my buddy, who as a European merchant marine (from deck mate to eventually captain) transited the Canal many times and visited Cuba as many times, pointed to the horrible slums all around and with sadness said: "This will be Cuba when it opens up to the US".

For all of its faults, poverty, etc. Cuba still has a certain innocence which will certainly be lost and trampled upon once it becomes a regular Caribbean slum country. Other than a few small well administered colonial islands can one name a well run and turly prosperous Caribbean nation?
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Old 21-06-2017, 08:53   #111
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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I also find sad humor in it. Lake Effect states that "you" (which I take to mean all of: the original writer, me, and USA) are willing to starve Cubans.
Um no, that was just aimed at that the person I was replying to.

I suspect that if you were to poll all Americans, the majority would probably be in favour of easing restrictions on Cuba and working on a more positive relationship. So no, not all USA.

Quote:
I question how full, open relations can make a huge difference in Cuba. After all, Canada, China, Russia, and EU are fully welcome- and capable- of making all the investment they want to. Granted, there would be an increase in tourism with US, but come on, will that change an entire economy? Americans can go to Jamaica, and that's still a shiphole of poverty, corruption, and crime.
...
I don't think USA can save Cuba. I question why it's my fault, and USA's fault that Cuba is depressed when there are 192 other countries and the Vatican that can do something other than blame and complain.
Again, you're making assumptions. All I'm trying to get across is that the half-century US embargo on Cuba hasn't worked, is not working, and probably won't work. All it's doing is hurting Cubans.
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Old 21-06-2017, 09:15   #112
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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Again, you're making assumptions. All I'm trying to get across is that the half-century US embargo on Cuba hasn't worked, is not working, and probably won't work. All it's doing is hurting Cubans.
I don't understand how the US not trading with Cuba hurts Cuba so, if you could explain how it hurts Cuba, that would be nice.
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Old 21-06-2017, 09:17   #113
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Um no, that was just aimed at that the person I was replying to.

I suspect that if you were to poll all Americans, the majority would probably be in favour of easing restrictions on Cuba and working on a more positive relationship. So no, not all USA.



Again, you're making assumptions. All I'm trying to get across is that the half-century US embargo on Cuba hasn't worked, is not working, and probably won't work. All it's doing is hurting Cubans.
What is/was your goal?

What the embargo has done is keep US dollars away from the Cuban military since they are the benefactor of any/all trade, including tourism!

What makes you think trade would benefit Cuban citizens?
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Old 21-06-2017, 09:42   #114
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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Originally Posted by Jason Flare View Post
I don't understand how the US not trading with Cuba hurts Cuba so, if you could explain how it hurts Cuba, that would be nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
What is/was your goal?

What the embargo has done is keep US dollars away from the Cuban military since they are the benefactor of any/all trade, including tourism!

What makes you think trade would benefit Cuban citizens?
Nice try, guys . The question remains - what is the point or use of the US embargo, if it isn't working?

[DD - I don't buy it that Cuba is any more militarized than some of the other countries the US deals with. The Cuban couple offering a home-stay or running a B&B, or the peddler on the beach, are not agents of the military. Is Disneyland funding the US military? Through taxes, yes.]
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Old 21-06-2017, 10:33   #115
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

What little I do know: the embargo was punitive in retaliation against Cuba's illegal nationalization (theft without compensation) of $7,000,000,000 of US business property. The embargo isn't an unusual, nor unique to USA.

At what point should that seven billion dollars be forgiven? Perhaps Canada and Germany can pitch in and pay Cuba's bill then USA can put it in the past.

I still say the embargo is largely immaterial to the Cuban people; there is no evidence to the contrary. If Canada/ Canadians are concerned about the Cuban people they could pull a couple warships and transports up to Havana, let the people voluntarily board, and take them to Miami.
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Old 21-06-2017, 10:56   #116
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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What little I do know: the embargo was punitive in retaliation against Cuba's illegal nationalization (theft without compensation) of $7,000,000,000 of US business property. The embargo isn't an unusual, nor unique to USA.

At what point should that seven billion dollars be forgiven? Perhaps Canada and Germany can pitch in and pay Cuba's bill then USA can put it in the past.
So I guess the US pays no price for having backed one bastard that a popular revolution overthrew and replaced with a different bastard?

Quote:
I still say the embargo is largely immaterial to the Cuban people.
Translation: Why should we stop kicking them? They'd look all beaten up whether we did or didn't.

This of course runs counter to Rognvald's assertion that the embargo is supposed to squeeze the Cuban people til they rise up and toss out the Castro regime.
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Old 21-06-2017, 18:11   #117
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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Nice try, guys . The question remains - what is the point or use of the US embargo, if it isn't working?

[DD - I don't buy it that Cuba is any more militarized than some of the other countries the US deals with. The Cuban couple offering a home-stay or running a B&B, or the peddler on the beach, are not agents of the military. Is Disneyland funding the US military? Through taxes, yes.]
You are welcome to your opinion, but you are void of facts.

I'll repeat. The military in Cuba owns *everything*, including the hotels. They are the benefactor of any foreign trade.

A Cuban expat and good friend at the age of 14 lived through the Cuban government seizing his family's 1500 acre ranch and 7000 head of beef cattle. Yes, they were a wealthy Cuban family. The ranch had been in the family for several generations. Their choice was to continue working on the now gov't owned ranch for pennies a month or flee to the USA.

The Cuban gov't didn't seize just foreign owned assets, they took everything of value from their own citizens.

If a Cuban expat sends US dollars to a relative living in Cuba, the military charges a 20% fee on top of the exchange rate to convert to local currency.

The USA isn't harming Cuban citizens, the Cuban government is taking advantage/hurting their own people.
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Old 21-06-2017, 18:49   #118
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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I'll repeat. The military in Cuba owns *everything*, including the hotels. They are the benefactor of any foreign trade.
... because when you say 'military', you actually mean government/regime (which also includes the military)...

Quote:
The USA isn't harming Cuban citizens, the Cuban government is taking advantage/hurting their own people.
Ah good. I was correct.

Yes, I understand that they nationalized everything. The Communist thing. I get it. You are right about that.

Now, you tell us why the half-century embargo, which hasn't brought about the change you want, and has only helped (to some extent) keep Cuba poorer AND keep the same regime entrenched, is still the best course to pursue.
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Old 21-06-2017, 19:38   #119
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

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Now, you tell us why the half-century embargo, which hasn't brought about the change you want, and has helped (to some extent) keep Cuba poorer, is still the best course to pursue.


Quote:
José Azel, a Senior Research Associate at the Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies, University of Miami and the author of the recently published book, Mañana in Cuba (Tomorrow in Cuba) took a different view:

"Currently over 190 nations engage economically and politically with Cuba while the United States remains alone in enforcing its economic sanctions policy. If indeed U.S. policy is deemed as one case of failure to change the nature of the Cuban government, there are 190 cases of failure on the same grounds. By a preponderance of evidence (190 to 1) the case can be made that engagement with that regime has been a dismal failure."
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._Cuban_embargo
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Old 22-06-2017, 01:39   #120
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Re: Well, there goes my trip to Cuba !!

I certainly agree with Tetepare's post # 109 and Dotdun's post # 112.
Speaking as an expatriate of Cuba since 1961 and long being a U.S. Citizen by choice and His Grace, I can say:
Cuba has always been a very rich country with natural resources and very wonderful, great people raised with the culture, customs, language and religion of the Spaniards.
Also had been guided by their Constitution which was worded from our own US Constitution but discarded since 1959.
Many leaders, through the centuries, have been taking advantage of and pilfering the island and it's great and friendly people. General Batista was a military shark and a murderer toward his opponents, but allowed the population live and thrive and was toppled by communist demons, the Kastro brothers and a few illustrious killers like Che Guevara that took from and raped everything and threatened everyone, including us here in the U.S.A. with nuclear missiles from the Soviets in exchange for power for their terrible regime.
This Kastro gang has stolen, not just hard earned property from the Cuban population and the U.S. corporations, but even the very souls of their own people; brainwashing them with their sick ideology, taking their labor, their savings, their religion and their freedoms to speak or learn truth, separating families and killing their ideological opponents. Kuba even has trained soldiers all over South America, Angola, Africa and many others and infiltrated spies to fight our brave US troops, for the mere hate and contempt the Kastros gang have for our us, the Americans...... Why should we be friendly to the Kastros when they still want to kill us?
Yes, Cuba had always traded with the whole world when they were free, and still now trades (or takes advantage of) most countries that choose to ignore Kuba's hate.
Our trading with them or not will not fix Kuba or help their population.
Our dollars would, through their tentacles, end up in the hands of the militia, which with more money and power, will oppress the population even more as they always do when Kuba enjoys better economic times. More US tourist dollars actually hurt their people by having more police enforcing their communistic rules.
Kuba even hates their own people that have left their island hell, even as a child.
The Kastro gang will not allow me to visit Kuba, as a Cuban or even as a U.S. Citizen, on a private owned boat.
It's not our president here that has cut off my visit there. I could go on a cruise ship or fly commercial to visit. ( If I did, it would break my heart to see what social justice and communism has done to the good memories I still have of my birthplace).
It is the wicked hate of the Kastros gang that keeps Kuba from being Cuba, America from being friendly neighbors with them because Kuba wants us dead and for almost 60 years, their citizens remain oppressed and in deep sadness.
So, don't blame the U.S. for the embargo or blockade. Our money will only corrupt their evil gang even more; ask the people in the know there, that have experienced the increased policing when any new opportunities were available to them from time to time.
If all those 'helpful' countries that trade with Kuba would have followed our example of staying away from those threatening, dangerous devils; Kuba would have been, long ago, once again free and friendly towards us and we could cruise there any time we wanted.
Be careful...bad ideology, communism and socialism destroy everyone's freedoms and rot even your very soul and God turns away from where He is not welcomed.
America; Bless God!.
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