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Old 10-11-2014, 16:43   #616
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I can agree with you in part, but i dont buy the good enough part when in reality is the substandar enough, lets define good enough, haaa we have this debate over and over, who dont remember the brass seacocks topic, some say are good enough for 4 or 5 years and others claim bronze is better stuff, when you run to the engine room in the dark to shut off that miserable brass valve and you end with the handle in your hand wonder why , why why!!!!! substandar...

We need a new topic about a long list of substandar products....
Hey Neil there are lots of things that are good enough but that doesn't make them good. Sure there are all kinds of substandard work on these new boats but then again what exactly is substandard? Obviously below your standards and mine to but not below Smacky's or Polux's and lets not forget that these gentlemen have lots of company because as they have pointed out they have sold thousands of these boats over the years so there are lots of folks that believe they are buying quality.
I don't know, on one hand you have to hand it to the builders for producing sailboats that people can afford to buy and a world class marketing program but like you say they are buying a boat that is not designed for the long haul and until they learn what to do with trashed out boats in the future maybe its not so good but I doubt it will change. People are making less money and its harder every year to stay ahead of the game, maybe these boats are on target and its as good as its ever going to get.
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Old 10-11-2014, 16:47   #617
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
We have a electrician dude working in the beneteau 50 this days, charge 80 euros hour, around 100 us hour, doing a excellent job in rebuildding all the DC systems onboard , 100 us hour and probably need 10 days to redone all the systems.. froking expensive but thats the way to go if you want a profesional job..
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What I don't do myself I over see the work on our boat, that sort of work simply could not happen on our boat. Now Smack I know I'm on the boat almost 24/7 and you are busy working while this was done but my first question is....did you pay the man?
You can link to my blog entry in my post above for all the details. But, yes, I paid the man...a hell of a lot of money. Why? Two reasons:

1. I trusted that the "dusty guys" knew what they were doing. The yard had been recommended to me by my surveyor (who was actually incredibly good at his job) since it was there at our marina. The rigging (the original job) looked great and the boat sailed well. It was only until I noticed the problems with the instruments and radar that I started looking into the problem and found the mess.

2. Even then, I didn't know any better. I'm not an ABYC electrician. And though the wiring in that bilge looked seriously whacked, even to me, I had no idea what the actual problem was.

In the end, the yard paid for an actual electrician to come to my slip and get the instruments working. But I'm the one cleaning up that mess...because there is no way in hell I'm taking it back to them.

The point is, you guys who have been around boats all your life may oversee the projects, etc. That's great. But I like to sail. I don't like to manage yacht projects. Yes, I'm putting the time into learning everything I can about the systems because I'll need to take care of them while we're out there...but when I'm paying a very handsome hourly sum to a "professional", I should be able to trust him.

The problem is - "dusty guys" are, many times, just dusty.
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Old 10-11-2014, 16:49   #618
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Re: Rudder Failures

Perhaps they are dusty because they don't do much.

Coops.
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Old 10-11-2014, 16:55   #619
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Perhaps they are dusty because they don't do much.

Coops.
Exactly.

Again, my broader point is that if you're going to have electrical work done on your boat, an ABYC Certified Electrician is probably the best way to go.

If you're going to inquire into yacht design or materials engineering, the yard guy is probably not the best resource.

Certifications/Degrees mean something.
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Old 10-11-2014, 16:58   #620
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Re: Rudder Failures

Now Smack you have to take some responsibility here, I'm hearing some "poor me" coming from you. You hired the guy and you should have carefully inspected his work before a hand shake and a cheque. All of us like to sail but we know there are certain responsibilities we have in life. Its a good lesson for you(although no one needs a lesson like that) and I'm sure in the future you will be a skeptic like many of us and make damn sure you got what you paid for. Anyways shitty piece of luck there because its going to be a real pain to put that stuff straight but it does point out that when you are running wires in a hull with a liner often you end up using the bilge area which is the second best idea.
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:01   #621
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Re: Rudder Failures

Smacky,
I forgot all that stuff was coming from a mast and I expect if it was a keel stepped mast then it would be in the bilge somewhere usually run through some conduit and into some sort of junction box.
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:06   #622
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
BTW

As inspired by Pollux's post (on IMOCAs):

Why are twin, kickup, outboard rudders so unpopular with cruisers? (???)

I can see many benefits:
- backup,
- no / little damage when hit,
- easier steering with modern beamy sterns,
- easy to replace or rebuild (no shafts, no corrosion, etc.),
- smaller foils, way less load,
- can be inspected without diving or haul-out,
- etc.

In my book, an excellent choice for any serious cruiser.

Why not popular at all?

b.
Yeah, it seems if you have to have spade rudders, having two, each slightly smaller than a single spade, would reduces the stresses quite a bit too...
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:08   #623
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Sure, carbon, vacuum bagging, and high end cores are used in production boats. After all, who else would be using such materials? Nobody has debated that. It's just that it's only very expensive production boats that use these methods. Your statement that you prefer modern, expensive, exotic "production" boats shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The only difference in our advocation is style, not quality. And the line where we draw "quality". For me a Beneteau ain't it...
No, but Jeanneau and other brands are using injection methods and most mass production boats use vinylester resins on the last coats. Some mass production boats offer a full epoxy hulls as an option and most use cored hulls

It seems that even if I had tried I was not clear regarding what I like, or maybe for you "exotic" is just what you call cutting edge in what regards design and technology? The best it is done today and that it will still look modern tomorrow? That's what you call exotic?
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:09   #624
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Now Smack you have to take some responsibility here, I'm hearing some "poor me" coming from you. You hired the guy and you should have carefully inspected his work before a hand shake and a cheque. All of us like to sail but we know there are certain responsibilities we have in life. Its a good lesson for you(although no one needs a lesson like that) and I'm sure in the future you will be a skeptic like many of us and make damn sure you got what you paid for. Anyways shitty piece of luck there because its going to be a real pain to put that stuff straight but it does point out that when you are running wires in a hull with a liner often you end up using the bilge area which is the second best idea.
Sure I'll take some responsibility. Caveat emptor.

But one has to know what to look for in order to adequately judge it. Now I know a little more about wiring...the hard way.

That said, in general I'd much rather pay a pro that I can trust than learn it all and do it all myself. Not interested. I only want to learn what I need to know to improve and maintain what I've got.
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:11   #625
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No, but Jeanneau and other brands are using injection methods and most mass production boats use vinylester resins on the last coats. Some mass production boats offer a full epoxy hulls as an option and most use cored hulls
I'm not aware of any mass production boats which use fully cored hulls. It's expensive to do it well.
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:16   #626
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Yeah, it seems if you have to have spade rudders, having two, each slightly smaller than a single spade, would reduces the stresses quite a bit too...
Yes and they are also more efficient on modern beamy hulls with wide transoms but they don't need to be on the outside of the stern where they are more exposed to breakage on ports and marinas.

They offer several advantage over the single rudder and that's why they are being used increasingly by Nas in most newly designed cruisers, including mass production cruisers.
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:21   #627
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sure I'll take some responsibility. Caveat emptor.

But one has to know what to look for in order to adequately judge it. Now I know a little more about wiring...the hard way.

That said, in general I'd much rather pay a pro that I can trust than learn it all and do it all myself. Not interested. I only want to learn what I need to know to improve and maintain what I've got.
Well all kidding aside, its a bitch when you get that type of job. Its happened to all of us at one time or another, its one way we learn.
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:23   #628
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Re: Rudder Failures

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It seems you did not get what I am fan off. It is not of less costly boats I am fan of contemporary design, the use of contemporary materials and techniques on boats that are the best in what regards what is made today.

They can be mass produced boats and therefore built on a budget and less expensive or high end boats with equally good design but better interiors and a quality of built that is slightly superior and sometimes vastly superior when carbon and nomex is used on hulls and decks.

I like a lot expensive boats, I like a lot Ourson Rapide that is a kind of the best that has been made in what regards performance cruising, even if it is not a production boat:
Ourson Rapide | finot-conq architectes navals

I like modern production voyage boats like the Cigale, the Allures or Garcia and as Garcia I am not referring the Exploration that I don't like that much.

I even like boats with a classic look and modern design and performance like the XC 45:
Interesting Sailboats: XC 45 MKII
I like mass production well designed and built sailboats.
Interesting Sailboats: TK - ALUMINUM BOATS
Interesting Sailboats: ELAN 320, NOW WITH A NEW NAME, ELAN E3
Interesting Sailboats: J112E
Interesting Sailboats: MOJITO 888, VOILE MAGAZINE BOAT OF THE YEAR 2015
Interesting Sailboats: SALONA 33
Interesting Sailboats: ARCONA 380
Interesting Sailboats: TS 42 CAT
Interesting Sailboats: RM 890, ONE OF THE BEST RM EVER
Interesting Sailboats: SUN ODYSSEY 349
I don't like new boats built with outdated design, like the Island Packets and I think that old designed boats, even if had represented once the best that was made in their day, given enough time, are outdated and outperformed by modern designs in pretty much all the points, from stability to interior space, to performance in a general way. Contemporary boats are better then their ancestors. Not much if they are not very old, very much if the design is much old. There are lots of types of contemporary designs and when well designed, I like them all.

That's what i think and this has nothing to do with mass production boats, or small production boats or semi-custom boat. Has you know I do not even own a mass production boat but a small production boat.

That's clear now?
My wife and I have become strong advocates of the modern cruising boat. After 40 years of sailing the traditional cruising boats like designs by Philip Rhodes and Al Mason we decided to try something new. After much research we decided to take the chance on the Boreal 44 for many reasons. 1) it is aluminum, light, fast and strong.
2) it has a single protected rudder that is strong and sea worthy.
3) has so much storage space that the deck is clean at all times including inflatable. I can't give you a name of any old design at 44 feet that can give you that.
4) it has a centerboard for our future adventures to the rivers of Borneo and PNG.
5) for a new boat the price for us was in our range and reasonable. Not all that much more than a new Benny toy at about 50ft.

What we feared the most about the new designs were all that we read on how sea kindly they are not and how safe they are not. But we went forward and never regreted it. What we have in a modern designed boat is by far the most sea kindly and seaworthy boat we have owned in 40 years of serious sailing. I always told Paulo that if we did not like the way she sailed we would be truthful on interesting sailboat thread. I'm glad I don't have to tell that story. Be it to windward in 30 knots and total crap or 40 knots for six friggin days like when we left the Canary Islands we were comfortable and well. My wife never got sea sick once as she always has been on all previous traditional boats for 3 or 4 days. I swear it is the stern dagger boards that keep the stern from sliding like traditional cutter rigged boats always did in rough seas like on our Mason 44. One example of seaworthiness was 2 days out of Panama off the Columbia coast we were hit broadside by a large breaking wave on the beam that covered most of the deck and cockpit right up to the boom. The boat was pushed side ways instead of being a knockdown as would most likely would have happened on the Mason 44. The most scary part of it was the noise and the vibration of the breaking wave hitting the beam. We came out of it right back on course instead of nose into the wind and stalled out.

I can't explain the reasons why some modern boats are better than traditional boats I'm not a NA I just use my instincts from lots of years sailing. I know there are a lot of junk modern day boats out there from Europe and the USA just as there are lots of old designed junk still out there. Over the last 8 months of sailing our Boreal from France to Panama we came across 3 boats in different ports that lost their rudder while on passage and guess what all were cheaply made production boats not made for ocean crossings. I have a hard time agreeing with the notion that all production boats are made to cross oceans and that is with respect to the OP but all boats are not made equal and the less equal are going to fail more than the proper made boat for the job be it old design or new.

Cheers
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:25   #629
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sure I'll take some responsibility. Caveat emptor.

But one has to know what to look for in order to adequately judge it. Now I know a little more about wiring...the hard way.

That said, in general I'd much rather pay a pro that I can trust than learn it all and do it all myself. Not interested. I only want to learn what I need to know to improve and maintain what I've got.
Good electricians are about as common as good plumbers. And if you expect them to be honest on top of being good -- well, unicorns are probably easier to find.

Which is why many millionaires of my acquaintance do their own plumbing, and their own electrical work

I actually had a wonderful electrician, the former head electrician of the former Moody yard. I paid him 35 pounds per hour (about $50). But then he retired and could not be persuaded to come out of retirement to do a job even for cash payment

One attempt to use another electrician (a renowned guy in Cowes) ended in tears -- much the same result as yours.

As a result, I now do all my own electrical work. Including the complete installation of a new N2K network, and complete rewiring of my mast, when I had the mast out two years ago.

That way, if I get a rat's nest like that, I will have only myself to blame.
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:39   #630
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Hey Neil there are lots of things that are good enough but that doesn't make them good. Sure there are all kinds of substandard work on these new boats but then again what exactly is substandard? Obviously below your standards and mine to but not below Smacky's or Polux's and lets not forget that these gentlemen have lots of company because as they have pointed out they have sold thousands of these boats over the years so there are lots of folks that believe they are buying quality.
I don't know, on one hand you have to hand it to the builders for producing sailboats that people can afford to buy and a world class marketing program but like you say they are buying a boat that is not designed for the long haul and until they learn what to do with trashed out boats in the future maybe its not so good but I doubt it will change. People are making less money and its harder every year to stay ahead of the game, maybe these boats are on target and its as good as its ever going to get.
YES yes!! there is mínimum requirements when using materials, i mean seriously , penny washers under a cleat is not substandar , is trisubstandar !!! i know Benetau as a example build some decent boats in the past and today some models are better made than others, all is good, i think is really positive for the sailing world to see such big numbers sailing around the world , most of the new buyers dont know nothing about boats or sailing , not even how is build or wich materials are used, Factory tours work well for a small % of people curious about how the boat is build , i do one at Lagoon Factory prior to delivery a 380 club to the carib, its amazing how the Brand representative try to bust you with BS when in fact you know really well whats going on..

Obviously my standars in my work are safety first, we deal with low production boats each year , so we rectify , rework, repair , modify , lots of things and bugs in this boats, we made dozen of phonecalls , sometimes a whole set of pictures , fax, info, etc to builders , brands , mast makers, and even insurance companys...At the end of the day one feel good to see a happy owner satisfied with the work done.

To me like others, going to the sea with substandar equipment or substandar stuff is a disrespect to the sea, is rough out there !!! and calm to, my motto is something like be ready for the worst and hope for the best, i dont believe you need a heavy doublé ender full keel to sail offshore , no, you can do it in a low production boat, the question is wich one?? and what are the risks to be in the wrong place in the wrong time...
Simple as that!!!
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