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Old 24-02-2016, 11:50   #31
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Originally Posted by seaward 42 View Post
"Spanish colonizers that pre-dates St. Augustine and the English settlement"



this is interesting, Spanish are colonizers but British are settlers.
You my friend are a person with good comprehsion skills..Anything to stop those Latinos from getting credit..
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Old 24-02-2016, 12:10   #32
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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you are trying to perpetrate more historical fiction by linking this to the title of the thread..I know a fella in Jamaica perhaps 65 yrs. old that has a birth ring on his finger that hasnt been removed since he was a baby..The ring was found by a diver and was thought to be from a spanish ship that sank off the coast 300 years before..His flesh has grown over the ring and can not be removed..If this fella goes to an archological site and dies there does that mean in 500 years when someone finds it that it is proof that Spain was not in Jamaica until 800 years after the record indictes?..That coin that was found up north means nothing as far as history is concerned..That thing could have been someones inheritence or good luck charm that they brought to America in the 1800s and lost on that site ,or traded to an indian or it could have been in a glass bottle that was washed off shore and found its way to a new land or it could have been swallowed by a cod that was eaten by a shark that was eaten by a man that was swallowed by a whale that washed up on the shore and was found by an indian that gave it to his baby son that died at the site where it was found..



For me to honestly reply to this absurd response is akin to me arguing with someone who believes the earth is flat and is the center of our universe. Good luck in your future. Galileo Galilei
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Old 24-02-2016, 12:19   #33
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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There's a lot of history that isn't taught and has been forgotten. Over ten years ago I read a book called "They all discovered America" and it was written in the mid 60's. It is very worth ready if you can get a copy and it talks about all of the various peoples from before the Romans to those up to and including Columbus. He's been proven right on most of his theories over the years.
I have that book and while some theories do seem far fetched others are well supported by if not direct certainly by circumstantial evidence.

Also the role of Basque fishermen cannot be ignored. They fished in the North American waters since 14th century if not earlier. Supposedly there are remnants of their cod drying structures/fire pits, etc. up and down Canadian Maritimes.

I do believe that vikings' discovery is unjustly undercelebrated and Columbus is overcelebrated. Probably due to the fact that there are many more Italian Americans than Scandinavian Americans.

I have another book by a guy who spent 40-50 years all over New England digging for evidence of the vikings' settlement. Finally he published that book with his "findings" in early 1961 claiming to definitely trace the settlement to somewhere in New England. Very elaborate and detailed analysis. His only problem was that a few months later the settlement was discovered but in Newfoundland.
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Old 24-02-2016, 12:49   #34
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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For me to honestly reply to this absurd response is akin to me arguing with someone who believes the earth is flat and is the center of our universe. Good luck in your future. Galileo Galilei
If you think in anyway that I believe that the Knights Templar and giants existed in North America that is absurd to me, is all I am saying..As far as Vikings sailing below Canada and coins im not buying that anymore than I do the Knights Templar ,giants story..The KT,giants,Vikings,Norseman stories run in the same vain as UFOs,werewolfs ,superstition, religion and "selective ignorance" IMO..I am not saying that it has no merit at all because that would mean that we shouldnt, as Dr. David Hurst Thomas once told me, "Keep Exploring"..One more thing.. I know that if I would practise good grammer that I may not be misunderstood so easily and I wouldnt need to go back and forth like this..For this I apologise..
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Old 24-02-2016, 12:49   #35
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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The discovery of North America by Europeans is a fascinating study especially for those with a love of seafaring. Vikings from Iceland, Greenland and Norway began visiting the shores of North America(Newfoundland, Labrador, Baffin Island, Quebec, Nova Scotia and beyond) in AD 1000 +/- 5 years and after---roughly 500 years before the great Portuguese and Spanish Sailors traversed its shores. ...
Looking at Spain at that time you will see that its center was Castilla, that had conquered all the Iberian kingdoms (Granada was only conquered in 1492) with exception of Portugal. Great warriors but lousy sailors.

The ones that were good at it and sailed their boats were Galicians, Basque, Italians and even some Portuguese (like Cabrilho or Magalhães). Columbus was Italian as well as Americo Vespucio (that sailed for the Portuguese) the one that give the name to America.

So I guess you are forgetting the Italians (Genovese mostly). Many Genovese captains sailed for the Portuguese and they were considered great sailors.
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Old 24-02-2016, 13:42   #36
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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....
I do believe that vikings' discovery is unjustly undercelebrated and Columbus is overcelebrated. Probably due to the fact that there are many more Italian Americans than Scandinavian Americans.
....
Fact is that America's European colonization, the one that lasted, started after Columbus discovery. Probably other colonization efforts were made, for sure by Icelanders and eventually by Welsh, but they had disappeared leaving very few traces.

Portuguese and Basque had also probably have been on the American continent before but they were interested on cod fishing not in colonization.

What lead to the faster colonization of central America was the level civilization that existed there and the gold associated with it. Many come to America to become rich even if few had managed but that lead to the establishment of settlements and later colonies.

The funny thing regarding Columbus as a navigator is that he completed messed up in what regards its objective, that was to find a way to India sailing westbound. He was married with a Portuguese of noble families lived in Madeira and had moved to Portugal to increase his navigation knowledge.

He first purposed his services to the king of Portugal (regarding finding a way to India westbound) and his offer was flatly refused even if Portugal has actively trying to reach India.

It is important to understand that what all wanted (Portuguese and Spanish) was to reach India to be able to make directly the spices commerce to Europe. The spice commerce was dominated by Muslims (Turks) and Venetians that increased many times the price of the original product that was needed as a preservative for foods. That was all about money, as usual. Nobody wanted to discover anything that did not bring with it a good profit.

In fact at that time Bartolomeu Dias had already managed to round the Cape of Boa Esperança (Good Hope) and from there to India the way was already well known.

To do that the sailors had to sail near Brazil to then turn East to be able to pass the cape, that is a stormy one. It is supposed that Brazil was discovered during one of those attempts before its actual "discovery" that was more taking official possession of it, by a big fleet that were sailing to India.

It is also supposed that the reason why Colombus offer was so flatly refused was based on existing knowledge that what he was proposing did not make sense.

At that time in Portugal the discoveries were not an adventure but a state business and all things related with it were treated as state secret. The secrets were so well guarded that very few maps and information reached our days. Discoveries were not made public and what had been discovered and by whom was a secret and the penalty for breaking that silence was death.
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Old 24-02-2016, 16:38   #37
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post

I do believe that vikings' discovery is unjustly undercelebrated and Columbus is overcelebrated. Probably due to the fact that there are many more Italian Americans than Scandinavian Americans.

I have another book by a guy who spent 40-50 years all over New England digging for evidence of the vikings' settlement. Finally he published that book with his "findings" in early 1961 claiming to definitely trace the settlement to somewhere in New England. Very elaborate and detailed analysis. His only problem was that a few months later the settlement was discovered but in Newfoundland.
I wonder if they were Viking establishments elsewhere that they just haven't found yet. It will be interesting to see what the future discoveries show.

The numbers of Italians who moved here certainly was a factor but also, it was the fact that we didn't forget about North America after Columbus left. I wonder if the Portuguese will ever want to share credit with the Italians since they paid for the discovery!
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Old 24-02-2016, 18:00   #38
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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I wonder if they were Viking establishments elsewhere that they just haven't found yet. It will be interesting to see what the future discoveries show.

The numbers of Italians who moved here certainly was a factor but also, it was the fact that we didn't forget about North America after Columbus left. I wonder if the Portuguese will ever want to share credit with the Italians since they paid for the discovery!
No, not the Portuguese they were not fooled by Colombus (that wanted to reach India). The Spanish did believe he could actually reach India and was them that that give him the ships and that were paying him and yes I believe the employer has rights over the discoveries of the employes, now and then

And yes, Spain in the end finished to get paid for all the expenses: lots of gold come from America and in the end they ended up colonizing a big part of the the continent.
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Old 24-02-2016, 18:11   #39
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

Is there any proof? they found supposedly Viking nation of Cape Cod... Stone Mill of Viking design in Newport Rhode Island... Viking artifacts in Minnesota.... I haven't seen a smoking historical gun yet... open deck boats were sure to perish crossing the North R
Tlantic... and if not they had to make it back.
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Old 24-02-2016, 18:42   #40
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Is there any proof? they found supposedly Viking nation of Cape Cod... Stone Mill of Viking design in Newport Rhode Island... Viking artifacts in Minnesota.... I haven't seen a smoking historical gun yet... open deck boats were sure to perish crossing the North R
Tlantic... and if not they had to make it back.
Are you sure about that? Some of those Viking boats were quite big and seaworthy.
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Old 24-02-2016, 19:53   #41
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Weren't there also some dive sites found with evidence of ancient Chinese ships along the west coast? I remember hearing something about it but the memory is a bit fuzzy.
Read Gavin Menzies' 1421: The Year China Discovered America. It's a good read. There's a web site.
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Old 24-02-2016, 19:55   #42
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

Lots to chew on here.

Perhaps the oldest by far were the Solutreans. Pre dating Clovis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solu...thesis#/search

Rognvald,
did anything come of the dig further down (Baie Vert?) the coast?

Also Farley Mowat wrote a book where he hypothesized an earlier settlement than Viking. Openly speculative in nature.

Farfarers.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?inde...=9781616082376
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Old 24-02-2016, 20:01   #43
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

There is some evidence Vikings settled in Minnesota 500 years before the Spanish even heard of the New World.
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Old 24-02-2016, 20:10   #44
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Also the role of Basque fishermen cannot be ignored. They fished in the North American waters since 14th century if not earlier. Supposedly there are remnants of their cod drying structures/fire pits, etc. up and down Canadian Maritimes.
That's what Peter Loveridge says in his A Cruising Guide To Nova Scotia too:

"Canso is the oldest continuously inhabited town in Nova Scotia, officially dating from 1604. There was undoubtedly a regular European fishery for at least 200 years before that--archaeological evidence reveals that Breton and Basque fishermen fished in a number of places in Eastern Canada in the 1300s, long before Columbus and Cabot arrived."

I can't help thinking they must have had charts.
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Old 24-02-2016, 20:16   #45
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

I came to Canada in 1963
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