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Old 09-01-2013, 19:27   #136
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Not exactly true, Doodles!

Here in Tasmania, for instance, if you are so bold as to ride in your dinghy from boat to shore without wearing an approved PFD you are subject to a stiff fine. The same sort of penalties apply to many of what Weyalan is calling BS rules.

So, perhaps you don't have to "buy into" the BS, but to thus express your independence is bloody expensive.

For those of us with the freedom to cruise off wherever we wish, avoidance of the BS is possible with some effort. For those who are constrained to local sailing (for whatever reason) it isn't so easy!

Incidentally, the cruising here in Tassie is so good that we keep returning despite the rules, and we even try to remember to don our PFDs for the hazardous journey to shore.

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Yeah, the silly part is that you could swim to shore without a PDF no worries. Not me though in that cool water, guess I would also be wearing the PDF.
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Old 09-01-2013, 20:12   #137
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

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Originally Posted by jkleins View Post
I am not sure you are in agreement at all. Kettlewell is saying the regulations that currently exist are not onerous and you are saying in a previous post that you "can't go" sailing if you don't have "permits, EPIRB, radar and AIS".
You are saying that these regulations currently exist and are eroding our freedoms and they don't. You don't need permits, EPIRB, AIS, radar or any of the things you originally said were eroding our freedoms to go sailing. You need a registration and a few simple safety items like life preservers for everyone and a few flares and a whistle. These are not even new.
The reason all these other things are not "legislated" is that people don't want them and don't feel they are needed.
Your comments don't show we are having an "erosion of our freedoms". They just show we are imagining that we are getting our freedoms eroded. That is unfortunate because it is creating limitations where they don't really exist. There are real barriers to cruising that many will feel. I very much doubt that real regulations will ever be one.

Jim
I can't speak for regulations in VA, USA Jim, but I can vouch for those in place in Tasmania, Australia. Herabouts, we can be fined if we do not have as a minimum, the following (assuming boat over 6m / 19')
Anchor, chain rode
Bilge pump & bailer
Approved lifer jacket
Fire extringuisher
Flares
Marine Radio
Lifebuoy
EPIRB
Radar reflector
First aid kit
Water
(source Marine & Safety Tasmania).

You also need to carry a motor boat license, which requires written and practical testing, and for which you must pay every few years. As has been mentioned, you must wear your lifejacket in your dinghy. Your boat must be registered and display its registration in prescribed location(s). If your dink has an outboard of more than, I think, 4hp, it must also be registered. There are, no doubt more, but the above spring immediately to mind

Now I'm not saying, necessarily, that any of those are necessarily silly, some are certainly what I would have thought ought to be discretionary, but they are a legal requirement and non compliance carries a penalty. I don't see why I should be forced to carry and EPIRB, if I don't want to.

Significant further legislation relating to OH&S is currently under discussion at government / bureaucratic level... ridiculously draconian OH&S legislation has just been implemented for the building trades (a builder may no longer wear short pants, for example)... I was recently informed, by a board member of the most influential yacht club in the state, that additional OH&S legislation was on the way.

And I wasn't saying that you couldn't go sailing without AIS, RADAR, etc. merely that the dominant paradigm seems to be shifting towards a belief that you shouldn't... and once it become a belief, becoming a law ain't so far behind.
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Old 09-01-2013, 20:22   #138
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

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Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
I can't speak for regulations in VA, USA Jim, but I can vouch for those in place in Tasmania, Australia. Herabouts, we can be fined if we do not have as a minimum, the following (assuming boat over 6m / 19')
Anchor, chain rode
Bilge pump & bailer
Approved lifer jacket
Fire extringuisher
Flares
Marine Radio
Lifebuoy
EPIRB
Radar reflector
First aid kit
Water
(source Marine & Safety Tasmania).

You also need to carry a motor boat license, which requires written and practical testing, and for which you must pay every few years. As has been mentioned, you must wear your lifejacket in your dinghy. Your boat must be registered and display its registration in prescribed location(s). If your dink has an outboard of more than, I think, 4hp, it must also be registered. There are, no doubt more, but the above spring immediately to mind

Now I'm not saying, necessarily, that any of those are necessarily silly, some are certainly what I would have thought ought to be discretionary, but they are a legal requirement and non compliance carries a penalty. I don't see why I should be forced to carry and EPIRB, if I don't want to.

Significant further legislation relating to OH&S is currently under discussion at government / bureaucratic level... ridiculously draconian OH&S legislation has just been implemented for the building trades (a builder may no longer wear short pants, for example)... I was recently informed, by a board member of the most influential yacht club in the state, that additional OH&S legislation was on the way.

And I wasn't saying that you couldn't go sailing without AIS, RADAR, etc. merely that the dominant paradigm seems to be shifting towards a belief that you shouldn't... and once it become a belief, becoming a law ain't so far behind.
Ann and I concur !

Well said, Patrick, and please don't forget to be sure that the EPIRB in your dinghy is properly registered with AMSA.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 10-01-2013, 01:47   #139
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

Inarguably, there are a lot more rules and regulations today than there were when I was young (61 now). Also, parents were less protective (no thats wrong, they were just as protective, but kids had more freedom under own responsibility). I don't like to pull the "when I was young" card, but as I noted earlier in this thread, we went swimming in the local river without adult supervision. We camped out, had campfires etc without adult supervision. I, and almost all my friends got my first rifle when I was 12.

Before that, when living in Copenhagen, my brother and I used to walk the kilometer to the train station, take the train a couple of stops and then walk another kilometer to school (without adult supervision). Admittedly there was less vehicular traffic on the streets, but we were only 6 and 7 years old.

Today, letting your kids do that would get you tossed in jail for child neglect.


The same is true for boating - there are many more regulations where you can offer the argument that the only person who can get hurt is yourself. If you choose not to wear a PFD, fall overboard and drown - hey life sucks - and then you die. And so on.

The argument usually offered by the people who pass these laws is: its for your own good.

Maybe I just want to take my chances.

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Old 10-01-2013, 03:05   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan
Another thing that makes me angry (grumpy old man again) is the gradual erosion of our freedom to make decisions / removal of personal responsibility in place of government sanctioned legislation / OH&S bullshit. These days you can barely take a leak without a permit and if, perish the tought, you want to go sailing, you had better have all your paperwork lined up, you EPIRBs and plotters and radar and AIS and licenses and permits and whatever the hell else. And If you don't, you can't go!

I just read a book called "Endurance" about one of Shakelton's epic journeys... everyone should read it, I reckon... itreinforces what can be done without any of that bullc##p.
Maybe in some countries , where I am , I need no licenses, no registrations, no insurance, no nothing.

Dave
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:13   #141
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
I can't speak for regulations in VA, USA Jim, but I can vouch for those in place in Tasmania, Australia. Herabouts, we can be fined if we do not have as a minimum, the following (assuming boat over 6m / 19')
Anchor, chain rode
Bilge pump & bailer
Approved lifer jacket
Fire extringuisher
Flares
Marine Radio
Lifebuoy
EPIRB
Radar reflector
First aid kit
Water
(source Marine & Safety Tasmania).

You also need to carry a motor boat license, which requires written and practical testing, and for which you must pay every few years. As has been mentioned, you must wear your lifejacket in your dinghy. Your boat must be registered and display its registration in prescribed location(s). If your dink has an outboard of more than, I think, 4hp, it must also be registered. There are, no doubt more, but the above spring immediately to mind

Now I'm not saying, necessarily, that any of those are necessarily silly, some are certainly what I would have thought ought to be discretionary, but they are a legal requirement and non compliance carries a penalty. I don't see why I should be forced to carry and EPIRB, if I don't want to.

Significant further legislation relating to OH&S is currently under discussion at government / bureaucratic level... ridiculously draconian OH&S legislation has just been implemented for the building trades (a builder may no longer wear short pants, for example)... I was recently informed, by a board member of the most influential yacht club in the state, that additional OH&S legislation was on the way.

And I wasn't saying that you couldn't go sailing without AIS, RADAR, etc. merely that the dominant paradigm seems to be shifting towards a belief that you shouldn't... and once it become a belief, becoming a law ain't so far behind.
We were shoked when we got to Oz and found the ultimate nanny state. They have rules about abfsolutely everything and everyone agrees that they are over-regulated but all that happens is more rules get passed. All so unlike the average Aussie who is so easy-going.

We are in now in Sotuh Africa and had a braai (BBQ) with the crews of three other boats and everyone, other than us was late 20s to med 30s doing rtw on quite modest boats. Young people are doings, but they seem to mainly European, with lots of Swedes in particular.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:16   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb
Inarguably, there are a lot more rules and regulations today than there were when I was young (61 now). Also, parents were less protective (no thats wrong, they were just as protective, but kids had more freedom under own responsibility). I don't like to pull the "when I was young" card, but as I noted earlier in this thread, we went swimming in the local river without adult supervision. We camped out, had campfires etc without adult supervision. I, and almost all my friends got my first rifle when I was 12.

Before that, when living in Copenhagen, my brother and I used to walk the kilometer to the train station, take the train a couple of stops and then walk another kilometer to school (without adult supervision). Admittedly there was less vehicular traffic on the streets, but we were only 6 and 7 years old.

Today, letting your kids do that would get you tossed in jail for child neglect.

The same is true for boating - there are many more regulations where you can offer the argument that the only person who can get hurt is yourself. If you choose not to wear a PFD, fall overboard and drown - hey life sucks - and then you die. And so on.

The argument usually offered by the people who pass these laws is: its for your own good.

Maybe I just want to take my chances.

What people are forgetting is the huge huge explosion in the numbers sailing or messing around in boats. In the 70s there was hardly a marina in France, today you have marinas everywhere. several large mass producers of boats, producing boats in numbers heretofore regarded as laughable. 40 years ago there were few regulations because comparatively there were few people in private yachts. That's why there's increasing regulation in many jurisdictions.

Dave
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:19   #143
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Originally Posted by AiniA

We were shoked when we got to Oz and found the ultimate nanny state. They have rules about abfsolutely everything and everyone agrees that they are over-regulated but all that happens is more rules get passed. All so unlike the average Aussie who is so easy-going.

We are in now in Sotuh Africa and had a braai (BBQ) with the crews of three other boats and everyone, other than us was late 20s to med 30s doing rtw on quite modest boats. Young people are doings, but they seem to mainly European, with lots of Swedes in particular.
There's a reason you see so many Europeans. It's the largest concentration of leisure sailors and yachts on the planet. There may be lots of Chineese, but few own yachts. , there may be lots of Americans, but sailing is in the minority of boating types , NZers have quite a concentration, but they are very far away.

Dave
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Old 10-01-2013, 06:32   #144
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

All this talk about regulations reminds me of a saying we have here in Thailand.

"The worst thing about Thailand is there are no rules. The best thing about Thailand is there are no rules."

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Old 10-01-2013, 09:01   #145
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

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Personally, I think the U.S. safety requirements for recreational vessels are so minimal they are somewhat silly: no anchor required, for example. There are not onerous boating safety requirements.
Personally I think that having any safety requirements set by da Gubberment is silly . and expensive silliness that does not work. and that's no matter how long or short the list is!

Basically it's trying to legislate for common sense - doomed to fail and even counterproductive as some will think that "if the gubberment says this is all I need then it is all I need to be safe - no matter what I do". IMO far better to start off from the position of knowing SFA, rather than having a Gubberment approved route to knowing next to SFA . and it's cheaper.

If having no safety requirements was such a bad thing then in the UK the bodies of sailors would be lying 6 deep on the beaches. and they ain't........and that's not because on average we be any brighter than average. No sirree!
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:31   #146
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

You have a point, Dave, and I cautiously agree with it. Too much nannying leads to sailore with no perceived need to develop common sense and judgement. In rhe ideal world a sailor always does what is best because his good judgement tells him to, not because he could be cited for not doing so.

OTOH as a professional mariner in my job, I have a ton of regulations to follow including licenses and certifications to get and maintain, and in an incident where i am even judged slightly responsible with the bulk of the responsibility on an unlicensed yachtsman, my papers are in jeopardy while the recreational boater has nothing to lose. That is uncomfortable and also inequitable. Pracically all judgements find both parties at fault to aome degree. I would like to see all vessel operators, even yachtsmen, required to have some sort of license, even if it is JUST A piece of paper you could obtain just by applying for, with no testing or other requirements. That way everyone has something at stake besides just their boat which is often insured against loss or damage... something they couls LOSE by operating or eqipping his boat in a grossly unsafe manner. But the nitpicking by te book details should be up to the individual according to the circumstances, not by chickensh!t regulations.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:30   #147
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

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OTOH as a professional mariner in my job, I have a ton of regulations to follow including licenses and certifications to get and maintain, and in an incident where i am even judged slightly responsible with the bulk of the responsibility on an unlicensed yachtsman, my papers are in jeopardy while the recreational boater has nothing to lose. That is uncomfortable and also inequitable. Pracically all judgements find both parties at fault to aome degree. I would like to see all vessel operators, even yachtsmen, required to have some sort of license, even if it is JUST A piece of paper you could obtain just by applying for, with no testing or other requirements. That way everyone has something at stake besides just their boat which is often insured against loss or damage... something they couls LOSE by operating or eqipping his boat in a grossly unsafe manner. But the nitpicking by te book details should be up to the individual according to the circumstances, not by chickensh!t regulations.
No recreational Skipper licensing requirements in the UK .

For recreational vs commercial what the recreational Skipper has at stake is their life! and the lives of all family onboard - simply because commercial tends to be bigger. often much bigger! and likely also faster........so in pure (and easily understood!) self interest to avoid direct contact.

For me that is enough of a stake in the game. Adding a piece of paper is not (IMO) a game changer. an idiot will still be an idiot.

For areas with both high volumes of commercial and recreational traffic often enough they have local bye laws / rules that carry penalties - and likely in favour of the commercial, at least for the big stuff that can't stop on a dime etc.....which even if not enforced on the water should favour the commercial later (in the arguments / finger pointing!) in the event of a collision (as well as the physics being in favour of the commercial!)........I can understand that would not give the "right" outcome in all circumstances, but IMO that is just part of the risk of the job .

Having said all that - I appreciate that my view from a bridge might be somewhat different! and also that me arguing the toss on the internet will change neither anyone else's view, what happens in reality on the water - or in legislation.......so for me these comments firmly in the realms of "me too much time on my hands"
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:34   #148
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

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All this talk about regulations reminds me of a saying we have here in Thailand.

"The worst thing about Thailand is there are no rules. The best thing about Thailand is there are no rules."

IME there were lots of rules in Thailand - they are just not always the same as those which are written down .
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:53   #149
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

so I'm sitting in the hospital right after dodging the BIG ONE

so I a new view as of today!
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:07   #150
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Re: Is the Cruising Lifestyle Dying ?

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so I'm sitting in the hospital right after dodging the BIG ONE

so I a new view as of today!
You are? Now?

What happened?

Are you ok?
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