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Old 25-06-2013, 17:54   #106
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

I wonder if some people on this thread have anger management problems when near their computers??? Maybe forgot their meds for the day????____Grant.
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Old 25-06-2013, 18:06   #107
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

Thomm, the combination of arrogance and ignorance isn't attractive. Giving advice about steering large rudderless yachts with the sails when you have never attempted it on even one such smacks of both.

Perhaps you should shut up and listen to those who have made the attempt.

Blowing downwind may indeed be possible without a rudder, but sadly, destinations are sometimes not in that direction. You may be a hot **** beach cat sailor, but the lessons that you have learned in that environment do not all translate to cruising size monohulls at sea.

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Old 25-06-2013, 18:07   #108
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
.....

If a J boat was involved in your post above that would indicate it was a race of some sort which is why they dropped out. My point is you don't
ve to just call for help and wait if you lose your rudder but that you should be able to sail the boat in with the sails alone.

Now if a storm or something was approaching you'd have to go ahead and abandon if you could. I was pointing out that knowledge of sailing was important when I was told earlier it didn't amount to much but knowing if your sink would drain at 25 degrees was of paramount importance. Btw, I have shut off all seacocks on my Bristol to include the sink!

For example, put up a couple head sails and pole them out, I reckon your boat is going to go downwind just fine ...............especially if you have an old full keel boat!
Like I said, they were 3/4 of the way around on a circumnavigation. Not racing. There are many J boats cruising. The fact is that in real situations at sea, lost rudders are very difficult to deal with. It is not a use the sails and drive in for two weeks. It can be dealt with, but very tough on the crew.
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Old 25-06-2013, 18:13   #109
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Thomm, the combination of arrogance and ignorance isn't attractive. Giving advice about steering large rudderless yachts with the sails when you have never attempted it on even one such smacks of both.

Perhaps you should shut up and listen to those who have made the attempt.

Blowing downwind may indeed be possible without a rudder, but sadly, destinations are sometimes not in that direction. You may be a hot **** beach cat sailor, but the lessons that you have learned in that environment do not all translate to cruising size monohulls at sea.

Jim
Jim,

You are correct about a person being arrogant, but I only started that after being attacked repeatedly. I'm confident I can get my boat in without a rudder if need be. I may have to wait it out a bit for a different wind but that's sailing.

As far as destinations, my only destination if my rudder was missing or broken would be a place to get it repaired. Maybe you should go back and read the thread from the start. Some stuff may have been said in jest also. I didn't know people went ballastic so quickly.

Btw, I'm still thinking those lessons do translate. Let your jib out and pull in your main on your big ole boat and I'm thinking it will go to weather. (or it will darn sure point that way) Think windvane if that helps.

Tom
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Old 25-06-2013, 18:44   #110
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Well , my point is , diferents boats for diferent folks, sure many mass production boats are sailing around the world , certain designs are more suitable for rough weather sailing and others are more suitable for coastal sailing, what happen when you take one coastal sailing designed boat and jump to the big blue or around the world? for me nothing, not big diference until you face real serious weather, cockpit locker lids in some productions boats are just so funy in the event of a capsize or hand holds to grab your body in rough seas, just examples, there is some tough individulas out there who made remarkable challenges in the sailing scenario, some write many pages of recomendations or attributes to found a serious boat to copy with long passages in almost all conditions, to me certain designers and builders are like artist, mozart, etc... and a good example is S&S , Frers post designs ,Perry, etc..

Thomm im sure you **** in your pants in f10 or f11 with your Triton, so be carefull with the can of sardines , you know? Cheers..
Yes your right coastal sailing is much tougher on the boat and its where most issues occur. Ocean sailing in deep water free from tides , obstructions and shipping is a comparative doodle.

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Old 25-06-2013, 18:50   #111
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Recently on another thread, a boat had lost its rudder just north of the Bahamas I believe. Many experienced cruisers were suggesting calling for help and doing nothing. But as a racer, you would know that most of the driving force for a sailboat are the sails. The skipper of that boat should have been able to drive his boat on in with the sails alone. If he needed more stability maybe he could tie a spinnaker pole or something like that off the stern or drag something.

Listen , all that guff is " book" sailing , try sailing without a rudder in many designs in heavy seas etc, this isn't racing round the cans , have you actually tried it in any sort of weather , get back to us then

As for spinnaker poles or drag devices , again very difficult to work properly and also to remain effective of yiu have days or weeks of an ocean crossing

Don't spout magazine sailing tips please

Dave
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Old 25-06-2013, 18:57   #112
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Gee, other than being on 'injury reserve' right now, I thought I had been out there in the last five years or so with around 30,000 miles. Most of the boats out there are quite ordinary but there are just not many Catalinas, although a few of the old Morgan Catalina are kicking around. Amels are produced in small numbers for sure, and pricey, but we were tied up in a marina in Darwin, Oz and there were three Amels tied up within 150 feet of us. People who buy Amels actually seem to use them for their appointed purpose.

ARC is representative of what is happening in the Atlantic, probably better than the 1500, but things change beyond the Atlantic. With the Red Sea being shut down the best place to see RTW boats is South Africa. Of the mass production boats there are far more Beneteaus of various types, but it is very rare to see even two examples of any boat. One exception, there were a couple of Vegas there.
RTW is a tiny percentage of users , milk run sailing in deep oceans is a doodle. If you want to see boats handling heavy weather as a matter of course , look at northern European sailing or NZ. Type a look at the common types so sailing there. I mean this is above 50 north . !! I think you could count the Amels on one hand there.

But in general you are agreeing with me , most are ordinary boats , why, because today's ordinary boats with a little care and attention are capable of RTW.

You certainly dont need $million boats to do it in.

Ps the 1500 is very different to a 4 week Atlantic crossing
Dave
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Old 25-06-2013, 20:34   #113
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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The Islander 36 wasn't on the list because it's better suited--out of the box--as a coastal cruiser. Yes, the 36 is a great boat, and I loved ours with all my heart, but with only 70 gallons of freshwater, 30 gallons of fuel, and dinky propane tanks, she's not ready to be taken on the big puddle jumping adventure. Now, with that all said, if you make modifications--increase tankage, add a water maker, go massive with your solar, then yes, she's a great cruiser.

We sailed our 1974 Islander 36 from Oxnard, CA to Zihuatanejo, Mex and had a fantastic adventure...but we needed to duck into marinas for water and more power (yes, we had solar panels but they were too small. our engine hated our cruising alternator and we had to switch it back to the original 55A somewhere along the Baja).

I wrote a little more about our Islander and selling her here on ....Always Go Blog

The fuel capacity wasn't really an issue for us...from Ensenada to Cabo we used only about 20 gallons of fuel. We sailed a lot, and the Islander is a hellofa great sailing vessel. Mostly it was the water tankage issue and two tall people living in a V-berth. And, probably, the one-butt galley....but other than that, a solid boat. I like that it's a skeg-hung rudder.

Email me if you want more pros/cons to the Islander 36. Heck I just saw one for sale in Los Angeles for $10K...I was tempted to bite again.
Ceal
Why not just get some 5 gal j cans for more water and fuel rather than doing the mods,sounds to much like work and expense..I d rather go sailing and save the time and money ,course thats how "I" am ,others may chose otherwise,and that is fine..
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Old 25-06-2013, 21:48   #114
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

thomm225 how old are you? how long have been sailing ? how many different boats have you sailed on? one post you are asking questions that you should know the answer to and the next your are giving advise! you are not likely to get much help!!!
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Old 25-06-2013, 23:08   #115
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Actually, to set your prebend on masthead fixed rigs, you crank in more tension on your forward lowers.
Take my word for it, I know how to tune a mast. I even have a hydraulic backstay! If I am doing a long downwind run (in my case, to Hawaii), I lean the mast forward and reduce the bend. For the upwind return, it's the opposite.

But most days I don't give a sh!t about tweaking the rig to get the last 1/10 kt of boatspeed. I just want to go sailing, and my nominal mast settings are just fine. Sometimes I play with the backstay to control genoa luff tension, but usually I don't care.

Sometimes, especially in big swells, we're just going to have to accept a compromise, non-optimum sail shape. Racing crews may want to work the traveler for each wave, but most of us have better things to do. I once had a crewmember on a Pacific crossing who was new to ocean sailing. He was a hot-shot dinghy sailor, and knew how to trim a sail. At first, he spent his watches with one hand on the jibsheet. Every time the sail would luff a little as a swell pushed us around, he would trim the sheet. Sometimes he would ease it. I kept telling him: "Dude, we're going to be out here for close to three weeks. Do you really want to be trimming that sail every ten seconds?" After about two days he wised up.

But don't get me wrong, I applaud your apparent sailing skills. They will serve you well. I just don't see where anyone is claiming that sailing skill is not useful for the bluewater cruiser.
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Old 26-06-2013, 04:54   #116
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Listen , all that guff is " book" sailing , try sailing without a rudder in many designs in heavy seas etc, this isn't racing round the cans , have you actually tried it in any sort of weather , get back to us then

As for spinnaker poles or drag devices , again very difficult to work properly and also to remain effective of yiu have days or weeks of an ocean crossing

Don't spout magazine sailing tips please

Dave
Well Dave, I reckon you can just call for help repeatedly if you are ever without your rudder. I would do that and try to rig something.

So, you are saying ideas are bad.. Don't try it if someone else hasn't. it could be looked down upon.

I read in Tanis Aebi's book where they pulled her engine using just the boom and what lines etc they had on the boat. Guess how I removed my first diesel? And installed the second. It was the idea from a book. I must say though my boom was really bending a lot with that 350 diesel hanging on it.

I learned to sail from books. no ASA Classes here. And yes I have gaps in my learning that's why I'm on here conversing with you fine gents.

Dave, when you sail to weather I'm thinking you are steering your boat away from the wind (weather helm) I believe it's called. So, what's turning the boat toward the wind?

Tom
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Old 26-06-2013, 05:10   #117
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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It couldn't hurt.

you are right, I took care of it
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Old 26-06-2013, 05:18   #118
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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thomm225 how old are you? how long have been sailing ? how many different boats have you sailed on? one post you are asking questions that you should know the answer to and the next your are giving advise! you are not likely to get much help!!!
I'm a young man and may be retiring in a few years if I can find the right boat? Or do I already have it?

I'm worried about where I'll put my bike though. (it's a Litespeed Vortex)

Different boats sailed on: Hobie 16, NACRA 6.0, NACRA F-17, Cape Dory, I sat on a Tayana, Soverel 30 (crew), I stood on an S2 maybe around 30'. But I learned on a 16' Chincoteague Scow. (40 Johnson) The bottom would flex on every wave!

I ask questions that appear simple because some of these old boys can add to things you think you already know.

You have to get out there and sail a lot though which I have done but not to far offshore. I have to work and these boats (monohulls)are slow.

One fellow was saying earlier that the catamaran experience I have doesn't apply to Blue Water Sailing. I say it's sailing and you can cover a lot of miles on a cat and in doing so see things and learn things.

I saw one morning at the start of the 100 mile Round the Island race out of Ft Walton Beach, FL a wave about 4' high in Destin Pass. I asked my son what in the hell it was. It was all the way across the pass. It turned out to be the outgoing strong tide from the hurricane we'd had on Thursday. This was Saturday. Btw, we finshed the race in 12 hours. We simply drifted out the pass btw the tide was so strong. No need to sail plus it was really light wind at 0715.

I have also witnessed lots of folks on big boats (monohulls) that should have been on Hobie 16's to learn And I've seen the experts like the old guy coming in Pensacola Pass in September. The tide in the pass looked like the Mississippi river it was running so hard. This old dude on his POS boat came in under sail with engine running. Plus he was pulling his dinghy and that engine was running. I'm thinking he wanted to be prepared.

I also got to see the kids on jet skiis jumping the 7'-8' waves on the edge of Pensacola Pass while my son did it on his Hobie 16 at 15 years old. Fun stuff.

And I hung out at the dock a lot with the monohull guys that actually sailed every now and then. They mainly had old full keel boats. Go figure. There was also a Bristol 27 there that I thought wasn't much of a boat. I thought the same thing first time I saw a Contessa 26 (IN the water) not knowing it's history. (until I read about it in a book, online actually)

So I've sailed since 1993, but in Florida we sailed/raced 10 months out of the year. Plus trips back on forth to Pensacola Beach for fun. I had an apartment on the water in the '90's for about $450.00 per month with both catamarans ready to go (masts up etc)

I did see my son get swallowed up by 2 storms ( I was watching thru binoculars) while sailing across Pensacola Bay on his Hobie 16 with a 12 and 14 year old crew. (they had been to Pensacola Beach meeting girls which is awesome when you are 15, 14, and 12 and have a boat) They made it and didn't flip (wind gust to 30 knots or so) but it was scary watching. Someone was killed the same day same area on a windsurfer by lightning strike. They wound up at the Marine barracks on base which was good.
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Old 26-06-2013, 05:19   #119
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Re: Blue Water Boats ........Again.

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Amels are produced in small numbers for sure, and pricey, but we were tied up in a marina in Darwin, Oz and there were three Amels tied up within 150 feet of us. People who buy Amels actually seem to use them for their appointed purpose.
My Amel Euros is hull number 250. Would argue that it was not a particularly small amount to be made for a boat above 40 feet in 1978. Anyways, I can assure it ticks many boxes on blue water boat check list.
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Old 26-06-2013, 05:48   #120
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Well Dave, I reckon you can just call for help repeatedly if you are ever without your rudder. I would do that and try to rig something.

So, you are saying ideas are bad.. Don't try it if someone else hasn't. it could be looked down upon.

I read in Tanis Aebi's book where they pulled her engine using just the boom and what lines etc they had on the boat. Guess how I removed my first diesel? And installed the second. It was the idea from a book. I must say though my boom was really bending a lot with that 350 diesel hanging on it.

I learned to sail from books. no ASA Classes here. And yes I have gaps in my learning that's why I'm on here conversing with you fine gents.

Dave, when you sail to weather I'm thinking you are steering your boat away from the wind (weather helm) I believe it's called. So, what's turning the boat toward the wind?

Tom
Tom with the greatest of respect , your experience seems to be racing based and around Hobie cats !

To suggest that a cruising boat in any weather can be steered by sails after loosing a rudder is pure " book advice " even with a locked rudder it's really hard.

Then to suggest the time honoured spinnaker pole and door method , yes it can be done , its not easy , its very difficult to make its last. It's very difficult to make it work etc.

In practice modern fin keelers approaching 40 feet , that loose their rudder , if they survive the flooding , they are virtually un-steerable ( outside of flat water in front of the yacht club )

The correct experienced answer is that exposed spade rudder boats need an emergency rudder that can be added to the boat in such situations. , luckily rudder loss ( where the boat survives ) is infrequent and hence few boats carry such arrangements

Dave
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