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Old 01-10-2013, 06:30   #166
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Originally Posted by Watermann View Post
ITZ's exist as their own designated entities and will be shown on charts. I'm not aware of any on the U.S. west coast and certainly there aren't any in Puget Sound.

There will be no rule stating that vessels are allowed to not use the TSS. Rather, the absence of a rule that obligates them to do so, means that the requirement doesn't strictly exist. The Navigation Regulations are silent on it and I'm not aware of any case law regarding it either.

However, you're right in that the practical effect is that a) the lanes exist to ensure that large vessels are in predictable areas and are somewhat segregated from smaller vessels and b) the requirements of Rule 10(h) would be difficult to overcome/justify by a vessel, particularly a large ship, that rides outside and parallel to the lanes during a transit. There is no logical reason to do that and in the event of a collision, that would certainly be brought up. Local custom in these waters is that, other navigational considerations aside, large commercial traffic transiting the sound will be utilizing the TSS.
You're absolutely correct. I think my confusion comes from being away from it for so long, jumbled up with CANMODs. In the Canadian rules it is mandatory for vessels >20m to use the TSS; the effect of which is that waters adjacent to a TSS are treated in the same way as an ITZ, whether designated or not. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:38   #167
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Exactly contrary to Dave's definition.

So where is the truth???

OK in simple terms ... if in an attempt to avoid running you down I end up in the mud you have impeded me.... thats why it is more of a rule 9 restricted in ability to manouvre without running aground issue than a rule 10 issue as in most separation zones there is plenty of water outside the lanes... you are more likely -in a TSS- to just inconvenience me than totally fruck up my day....
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:48   #168
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
OK in simple terms ... if in an attempt to avoid running you down I end up in the mud you have impeded me.... thats why it is more of a rule 9 restricted in ability to manouvre without running aground issue than a rule 10 issue as in most separation zones there is plenty of water outside the lanes... you are more likely -in a TSS- to just inconvenience me than totally fruck up my day....
I consider that in respect to "not impeding" all space outside of the TSS should be considered shoal for large vessels following the lanes. "Not impede" or rather "avoid impeding" is also used in rule 18 in respect to vessels constrained by draught (CBD). The obvious context as you've surmised (and I previously lectured Dockhead about), is that so long as there is sufficient navigable water (deep and wide enough) to manoeuvre then the vessel is not impeded.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:51   #169
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

OK... Rule 10 in full including 'J'


Rule 10 : Traffic separation schemes
(a) This Rule applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the Organization and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other Rule.
(b) A vessel using a traffic separation scheme shall:
(i) proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of traffic flow for that lane;
(ii) so far as practicable keep clear of a traffic separation line or separation zone;
(iii) normally join or leave a traffic lane at the termination of the lane, but when joining or leaving from either side shall do so at as small an angle to the general direction of traffic flow as practicable.
(c) A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.
(d)
(i) A vessel shall not use an inshore traffic zone when she can safely use the appropriate traffic lane within the adjacent traffic separation scheme. However, vessels of less than 20 metres in length, sailing vessels and vessels engaged in fishing may use the inshore traffic zone.
(ii) Notwithstanding sub-paragraph (d) (i), a vessel may use an inshore traffic zone when en route to or from a port, offshore installation or structure, pilot station or any other place situated within the inshore traffic zone, or to avoid immediate danger.
(e) A vessel other than a crossing vessel or a vessel joining or leaving a lane shall not normally enter a separation zone or cross a separation line except:
(i) in cases of emergency to avoid immediate danger;
(ii) to engage in fishing within a separation zone.
(f) A vessel navigating in areas near the terminations of traffic separation schemes shall do so with particular caution.
(g) A vessel shall so far as practicable avoid anchoring in a traffic separation scheme or in areas near its terminations.
(h) A vessel not using a traffic separation scheme shall avoid it by as wide a margin as is practicable.
(i) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any vessel following a traffic lane.
(j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
(k) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre when engaged in an operation for the maintenance of safety of navigation in a traffic separation scheme is exempted from complying with this Rule to the extent necessary to carry out the operation.
(l) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre when engaged in an operation for the laying, servicing or picking up of a submarine cable, within a traffic separation scheme, is exempted from complying with this Rule to the extent necessary to carry out the operation.

I'm out of here....
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:00   #170
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I would consider my definition as correct , impeding is Not simply " getting in my way "


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Old 01-10-2013, 07:36   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

Exactly contrary to Dave's definition.

So where is the truth???

Cockcroft " a guide to the collision regulations" is one of the accepted bibles of interpretation and a record of assessments of court judgements



Rule IO(i) and (j)
A vessel which is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel, in accordance with Rule lO(e) and (j) must also comply with the requirements of Rule 8(f) and must, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the vessel whose passage is not to be impeded (see pages 58-60).

Small vessels and sailing vessels

The requirement of paragraph (j) is similar to that of paragraph 9(b) relating to narrow channels, but in traffic lanes small vessels and sailing vessels must avoid impeding the safe passage of any power- driven vessel following the lane. For this requirement the applica- tion of Rule 8(f) is relevant (see pages 58-60). Small vessels and sailing vessels are not required to avoid impeding the safe passage of power-driven vessels crossing a lane or moving against the direction of flow.

A sailing vessel, or small power-driven vessel, should, preferably, wait for a suitable opportunity to cross a traffic lane, but a power- driven vessel following a lane is not relieved of her obligation to keep out of the way if there is risk of collision with a sailing vessel.

My italics

Furthermore

"Rules 9(b), (c) and (d), lO(i) and (i) and 18(d). The following item of Guidance was approved in 1982 by the Maritime Safety Committee; ‘When a vessel is required not to impede the passage of another
vessel, such a vessel shall so far as practicable navigate in such a way as to avoid the development of risk of collision. If, however, a situa- tion has developed so as to involve risk of collision, the relevant Steering and Sailing Rules shall be complied with.’

The above Guidance is now superseded by the new Rule 8(f) which establishes clearIy that the requirements of ‘not to impede’ are com- plementary to other requirements of the Steering and Sailing Rules.

The requirement not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel does not apply only to vessels in sight of each other which are approaching in such a way that risk of collision is likely to develop. The requirements of Rule 8(f) together with Rules 9(b), (c) and (d), and lO(i) and (i) apply in both clear and restricted visibility. For instance, a sailing vessel or small power-driven vessel which becomes aware of the approach of a large power-driven vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel should take early action to allow safe passage whether or not the other vessel is in sight.

When vessels are in sight of each other and are approaching in such a way that risk of collision seems likely to develop the Rules of Part B Section I1 become applicable. In such circumstances a vessel which is required not to impede the passage of another vessel is not relieved of that obligation if the other vessel will become the give-way vessel when risk of collision exists. For instance, when a power-driven ves- sel and a sailing vessel are approaching each other the power-driven vessel is required by Rule 18(a) to keep out of the way when risk of collision begins to apply, although she may be proceeding along a nar- row channel or traffic lane, but this does not relieve the sailing vessel of the obligation to take early action to allow sufficient sea room.
"

Hence the definition has been " guided" to mean do not navigate as to develop a collision. Note then that 8 (f) was added to define further that irrespective of they" impede" rule , the steering rules apply.

The key definition is " sea room" , not merely forcing a change of course or speed.

Hence you can see that in actuality , "'impeding " especially from a small boat , is quite difficult to do . " impeding". Certainly doesnt mean " get out of my way, little boat "

Dave
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:53   #172
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Cockcroft " a guide to the collision regulations" is one of the accepted bibles of interpretation and a record of assessments of court judgements



Rule IO(i) and (j)
A vessel which is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel, in accordance with Rule lO(e) and (j) must also comply with the requirements of Rule 8(f) and must, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the vessel whose passage is not to be impeded (see pages 58-60).
Small vessels and sailing vessels
The requirement of paragraph (j) is similar to that of paragraph 9(b) relating to narrow channels, but in traffic lanes small vessels and sailing vessels must avoid impeding the safe passage of any power- driven vessel following the lane. For this requirement the applica- tion of Rule 8(f) is relevant (see pages 58-60). Small vessels and sailing vessels are not required to avoid impeding the safe passage of power-driven vessels crossing a lane or moving against the direction of flow.
A sailing vessel, or small power-driven vessel, should, preferably, wait for a suitable opportunity to cross a traffic lane, but a power- driven vessel following a lane is not relieved of her obligation to keep out of the way if there is risk of collision with a sailing vessel.

My italics
I actually corresponded with Cockcroft himself on this point, as Lodesman knows.

But despite my legal training and practice, I cannot detect a clear principle in there.

This sentence:

A sailing vessel, or small power-driven vessel, should, preferably, wait for a suitable opportunity to cross a traffic lane, but a power- driven vessel following a lane is not relieved of her obligation to keep out of the way if there is risk of collision with a sailing vessel

Does not tell us whether the sailing vessel is required to avoid creating the risk of collision in the first place. The proposition that once a risk of collision exists, the power-driven vessel following the lane is required to maneuver, does not settle that.

I still do not see how you can be fulfilling your obligation to "not impede", while sailing into a risk of collision situation which forces the lane-following MV to maneuver. It would seem logical to me that as soon as you detect a risk of collision with a lane-following MV, it should be you doing the maneuvering.

You are after all required to "take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the vessel whose passage is not to be impeded". What is this "early action" other than changing course -- giving way -- so that the lane-following MV can pass without manuevering?

This would be all the more true in a Rule 9 narrow channel situation, which was the case Lodesman and I were originally discussion.

However, the more I read and listen to you guys, the less I feel I understand What is missing is a heirarchy and order of action required by the respective vessels.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:01   #173
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Interesting, I thought sailing vessel's were only allowed to enter TSS's to cross at close to 90 degrees. Thanks for the clarification goatboating!
On a side note, a friend of mine recently sailed directly down the middle of the TSS as it felt like the safest place to avoid shipping traffic (and fish pots)(off Portugal) with ships passing a few miles off either side
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:11   #174
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"A vessel which is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel, in accordance with Rule lO(e) and (j) must also comply with the requirements of Rule 8(f) and must, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the vessel whose passage is not to be impeded (see pages 58-60)."

Is the key piece in Cockcroft.

Early action to allow sufficient sea room, hence by inverse , impeding is not providing sufficient sea room.

This concurs with all I've read including farwell , on this subject. In essence impeding is not allowing a vessel sufficient sea-room to manoeuvre. ( ie as in narrow channels, or constrained by draft) . But notwithstanding , there is clearly no where , that states impeding is " interfering" which is often how yachts think it is.

In other words in narrow channels and TSS and elsewhere , merely requiring the larger vessel to follow the steering rules , once within sufficient searoom is certainly not " impeding"


What's clear in all this , is that yachts need to realise they are full participants in the COLREGS. In fact they are provided with enormous lee-way and courtesy by the rules.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:27   #175
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
"A vessel which is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel, in accordance with Rule lO(e) and (j) must also comply with the requirements of Rule 8(f) and must, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the vessel whose passage is not to be impeded (see pages 58-60)."

Is the key piece in Cockcroft.

Early action to allow sufficient sea room, hence by inverse , impeding is not providing sufficient sea room.

This concurs with all I've read including farwell , on this subject. In essence impeding is not allowing a vessel sufficient sea-room to manoeuvre. ( ie as in narrow channels, or constrained by draft) . But notwithstanding , there is clearly no where , that states impeding is " interfering" which is often how yachts think it is.

In other words in narrow channels and TSS and elsewhere , merely requiring the larger vessel to follow the steering rules , once within sufficient searoom is certainly not " impeding"


What's clear in all this , is that yachts need to realise they are full participants in the COLREGS. In fact they are provided with enormous lee-way and courtesy by the rules.

Dave
I agree 1000% with the last paragraph.

The rest raises more questions in my mind than it answers.

Maybe there is something illuminating in Farwell -- can you cite any relevant passages?
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:43   #176
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I agree 1000% with the last paragraph.

The rest raises more questions in my mind than it answers.

Maybe there is something illuminating in Farwell -- can you cite any relevant passages?
I dont think Dockhead that you will get a 100% tied down definition of "impeding" especially as it applies to small yachts.

First lets look at the relevant section 8(f) , whcih was specifically added in 1989 to address some issues like this

Quote:
Rule 8(f). It states:
(i) A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the pas- sage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circum- stances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea-room for the safe passage of the other vessel.
(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another ves- sel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the Rules of this Part.
(iii) A vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this Part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision

Clearly the definition of sea room is important, as is the requirement on the vessel to "take early action" to allow such sea room.

Secondly the object of providing such sea-room still applies , in those circumstances, even if the both vessels are now applying the COLREGS because a risk of collision exists.

The "not to be impeded" vessles must still apply the normal COLREGS rules, there is no " get out of my way" rule.

Quote:
The duties not to “impede” in Rules 9(b), 9(c) and 9(d) do not confer right-of-way” status on the vessel following the channel. Rather, Rule 8(f)(i) requires the vessel which is directed not to impede another to take early action to ensure adequate sea-room for the other. Together, Rules 9 and 8(f) advise all mariners, whether operating large or small craft, that vessels navi- gating a narrow channel or fairway are legally deemed to be at a disadvan- tage, and that the navigational situation between them and less restricted ves- sels should be planned and executed so as not to impede the safe transit of the less maneuverable vessel within the channel. So far as practicable, the vessel directed not to impede the other must navigate in such a way as to avoid even the development of a risk of collision. In the end, if a situation develops so as to involve risk of collision, the vesse

"Journal of Maritime Law & Commerce, Vol. 41, No. 1, January, 2010
Taking Narrow Channel Collision Prevention Seriously To More Effectively Manage Marine Transportation System Risk
Craig H. Allen"
Futhermore Mr Allen, A member of the US Navigation safety committee and an acknowledged expert on Farwell, ( this is a piece from his paper on Farwell)
goes on to say

Quote:
Mariners—both professional and recreational—were asked to vote on which of the rules of the road is the most confusing and complex, Rule 9 would surely be at or near the top of the list.99 Confusion begins with the uncertainty of its application. The NTSB’s concern with the lack of a defi- nition of “narrow channel or fairway” or formal criteria to assist the mariner in making such a determination is longstanding.100 A response to its recom- mendation for an interpretive rule or some other guidance to help the “oper- ator make the determination for himself and thereby assist him in applying the rules of the road”101 is overdue. A second problem in Rule 9 (and in Rule 10, among others) concerns the poorly understood and too often ignored duty on the part of some vessels not to impede the passage (or the “safe” passage) of another vessel, and how that duty applies once risk of collision between the vessels arises.

and later in discussing the whole issue of Rule 9

Quote:
The case for replacing the current Rule 9 duty “not to impede” in paragraphs 9(b), 9(c) and 9(d) with a duty to “keep out the way” has been made by a number of experts.

Its is worth noting that the Inland waterways Rules of the US for the Great lakes etc , rule 15b which uses "keep out of the way" specifically to address the confusion around "impeding" in the COLREGS


So , what do we have

The COLREGS, empathise sea-room as the defining issue in narrow channels and lanes. Equally they do not assign any particular "right of way" to vessels that "must not be impeded", these vessels are not absolved from their obligations under COLREGS ( which includes giving way to sailboats) .

Hence it is reasonable to deduct, that where a vessel , operating in a lane or narrow channel, causes or may cause a vessel to manoeuvre , adjust course or speed, is not in itself causing an impediment to the "not to be impeded" vessel. However should change or proposed change, cause that vessel to turn out of that lane , or may run out of sea room, then an impediment has been caused.

Hence In deep sea TSS sea lanes, short of behaviour approaching that of hooligan status, its very unlikely a sailing vessel would cause an impediment , as defined by the COLREGS , in any circumstance.

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Old 07-10-2013, 15:24   #177
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

I was so concerned over all this VAST attention to my sailing, being told I was a danger, etc. that I actually talked to a Coastie. He actually said that staying away from the big boats to begin with was a perfectly acceptable strategy -- as long as I could tolerate a five minute delay. I said that was what beer was invented for, to turn annoying delays into delightful leisure moments.

Then I asked him, suppose I looked around to see a big boat bearing down on me, was it ok to turn 90 degrees and avoid a collision?

He said what I expected him to say -- that it is the obligation of every boater to IGNORE who is stand on and who is give way if one thinks there is a danger of collision, but to make a CLEAR move so it's obvious what one's intentions are.

Just to be certain, I asked him whether a 90 turn would be clear enough, and he said that he could not answer for every captain on the water in the entire world, but that it would be clear to him.

All in all he did not seem to think I was a reckless fool who should not be on the water.

All responses will be cheerfully ignored. Hearing from the Coast Guard was good enough for me.
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Old 07-10-2013, 15:46   #178
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Sounds like you both have a similar understanding of the COLREGS.
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Old 07-10-2013, 15:48   #179
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Re: Big Ship Little Boat, who Gives way

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Sounds like you both have a similar understanding of the COLREGS.

I viewed it as a more neutral response than a boss asking his underlings whether or not he was right.
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Old 07-10-2013, 15:52   #180
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I was so concerned over all this VAST attention to my sailing, being told I was a danger, etc. that I actually talked to a Coastie. He actually said that staying away from the big boats to begin with was a perfectly acceptable strategy -- as long as I could tolerate a five minute delay. I said that was what beer was invented for, to turn annoying delays into delightful leisure moments.

Then I asked him, suppose I looked around to see a big boat bearing down on me, was it ok to turn 90 degrees and avoid a collision?

He said what I expected him to say -- that it is the obligation of every boater to IGNORE who is stand on and who is give way if one thinks there is a danger of collision, but to make a CLEAR move so it's obvious what one's intentions are.

Just to be certain, I asked him whether a 90 turn would be clear enough, and he said that he could not answer for every captain on the water in the entire world, but that it would be clear to him.

All in all he did not seem to think I was a reckless fool who should not be on the water.

All responses will be cheerfully ignored. Hearing from the Coast Guard was good enough for me.
Does a lot of yacht sailing , does your coastie friend. ??? Skilled at collision avoidance in a 6-7 knot craft , I presume ?

There are " experts" and then state paid " experts"

Dave
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