Help from Pan pan call

[OutOfControl]

Originally Posted by ferrailleur

Excuse my ignorance. What's "FWC"
Thanks

Florida Fish and Wildlife
Conservation Commission

https://myfwc.com/

[JPA Cate]

Earlier this year, we had occasion to be towed off a rock breakwater. My error. We were hard aground, the fin keel trapped between two boulders , and required to be spun on the keel to be able to get out. It was a commercial fisherman who came to our rescue. We were in danger of losing the boat, but could have swum ashore, if we abandoned it.

When you feel grateful for help received, and someone doesn't want money, because what goes around comes around--we all help each other-- what do you do?

What we did was to go to the local pub and find out what beer the skipper preferred, and bought him a case and delivered it to his boat. It is one way.

Knew a guy lost his wallet in Mexico. It had been on the seat in his car because sitting on it was uncomfortable, and fell out. A local man found it, contacted him, and it was returned full. Our friend tried to give him a reward, and the Mexican man turned him down. Finally, they worked it out, and our friend bought clothes for the children in the family. So, there are ways, but there is also the need to find a balance that is acceptable to both parties.

Of course, these transactions are based on common decency and have nothing to do with common law.

Ann

[BugzyCan]

I can see both sides of this argument, some guy, on his way fishing, or hauling logs, or whatever, is interrupted by a Pan Pan, his time is valuable, so when he takes a few hours to help you out, he feels he should be compensated.


I think you should play differently, feel the guy out, if he lost money because he was helping you, then give him some money. Only seems fair to me.


I bet most would refuse the money.

[Sailormanbigd]

Once towed a 28 or 30ft cabin cruiser because he flagged me down stating his engine was dead. I had a 22ft light sailboat with a 5hp outboard. Struggled the 2 miles in to the boat ramp. Wind blew me out of the channel and I grounded. Had to get out and punch my boat off while towed boat watched on there boat. Got them safely to dock and guy said thanks. He was on the phone with someone he was waiting fore to arrive. I asked if they were coming to help. He said no, we are going out again!! Really? Oh yah, the boat has cooled down by now! Makes me think twice about offering assistance ever since!

[Fore and Aft]

You beat me to it Ann. Most Aussies I know would think a case of beer is a fair payment.
Cheers

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

............

Of course, these transactions are based on common decency and have nothing to do with common law.

Ann

EXACTLY and decency should trump law every time!

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

You beat me to it Ann. Most Aussies I know would think a case of beer is a fair payment.
Cheers

Very true although I was once in the position to be the giver of beer and the recipient didn't drink alcohol - it was a serious dilemma!

I discovered the guy was a big cola drinker but hey, a case of cola is peanuts compared the beer (dollar wise) so the number of cases of cola was duly increased to the dollar equivalent.

Of course, the whole concept of monetarily value is irrelevant in these situations, it is all about the intent to thank meaningfully in a way that does nor embarrass either party.

[Chris31415]

Originally Posted by jemcne7

Just a heads-up make sure your vessel is capable of towing another vessel safely. I towed a stranded boat to shore and they did offer to pay me for my trouble, but I declined. I later realized that the Sea Doo I had towed them with needed $1000 in repairs because their boat was too heavy and I towed it for too long.

This. If you tow someone and something goes wrong, who is liable? $1k in repairs is unfortunate, but worse can happen.

Inexperienced guy towing another boat, what could possibly go wrong?

[a64pilot]

FWC is what we used to call the Game Warden, it’s the Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flor...ion_Commission

Most call them Florida Water Cops, cause I’ve never seen them having anything to do with wildlife, fishing etc. They are the ones to pass out tickets for Manatee zone speed violation, used to be no wake areas, they inspect your boat for life vests, etc. they are water cops.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by BugzyCan

I can see both sides of this argument, some guy, on his way fishing, or hauling logs, or whatever, is interrupted by a Pan Pan, his time is valuable, so when he takes a few hours to help you out, he feels he should be compensated.


I think you should play differently, feel the guy out, if he lost money because he was helping you, then give him some money. Only seems fair to me.


I bet most would refuse the money.

No, you help them. You’ll make more money in your life.
I towed a sailboat to the fuel dock in Panama City with my dinghy, they were trying to sail to it and that is tough, likely damage something tough.
They had run their battery down so low the motor wouldn’t crank.
Anyway you could tell these guys had no money, but they wanted to give me something, so one gave me a beer bottle holder he had made from an old fishing float. I thanked him of course, cause to not accept it and say think you would be mean.

A couple of years earlier I had run my little 21’ CC aground, not bad, I could wait on the tide and push it off, but I called Seatow because I had the Insurence and why not? Well the lady on the line kept telling me they couldn’t help if I was hard aground, but couldn’t explain what hard aground meant, meanwhile Bubba showed up In his pontoon boat and pulled me off. I never thought to offer money, because in the old South that would be offending him, but you certainly thank him.
Later I found out that Seatow won’t help a member if they can get out of it, there is no money in it. Boat US however pays the local guy if he does a covered tow.
Back when I was a kid you couldn’t take your engine cover off when you were fishing or everyone within sight would come over and ask if you needed help.
Most didn’t have a radio, jus take the engine cover off of the outboard and help will be there in 5 min or less.

That has changed over the years, I believe you could now be waving and most would pass you by

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

This. If you tow someone and something goes wrong, who is liable? $1k in repairs is unfortunate, but worse can happen.

Inexperienced guy towing another boat, what could possibly go wrong?

I’ve towed boats with my jet ski many years ago. Any boat with a close or stock motor should be able to tie to a dock and hold whatever throttle is continuous power for ever, just don’t hold higher than max continuous power, but that’s true for anything car, truck whatever.
My ski I had a built dual carburetor performance jet ski reed valve motor, stock jet ski hit its rev limiter at about 5,000 RPM, mine came on the pipe good at about 8,000 RPM and I think would pull to about 10,000.

[Chotu]

I once, fairly recently, in the heat of the moment after losing steering right in front of a ferry, said "Pan pan" instead of "Securite" when addressing the ferry.

What a slip of the brain/tongue.

The coast guard got right on and took my position, etc.

A complete embarrassment. At least the ferry didn't run us down, but oh boy. Did not want all that attention.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

This. If you tow someone and something goes wrong, who is liable? $1k in repairs is unfortunate, but worse can happen.

Inexperienced guy towing another boat, what could possibly go wrong?

IMO, the person towing is liable for any damage that occurs to the towing boat. After all, the person doing the towing is in charge of the towing boat. The person being towed has no control of how the towing boat is being operated.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

The rational of a Pan Pan call is to notify all stations that you require advice or assistance in a situation that has the potential to become an emergency. The chief differences between a call to the coast guard and a Pan Pan call is that it is a request to all stations and it calls for radio silence. I would normally expect a towing/salvage company to route through the coast guard. If there is no coast guard response or other co-coordinating station involved it would seem quite reasonable for a towing company to contact you directly to offer services. A big difference between Pan Pan and Mayday is that a Pan Pan does not create an obligation for other vessels to assist. In a Mayday a tow service would be obliged to respond and pick up the crew (but not rescue the boat) and would not expect a fee for that but would be entitled to a salvage fee if the also towed the boat because you are considered to have abandoned ship. In a Pan Pan you are not requesting to be taken off and have not abandoned ship so they should simply be offering assistance as a commercial tow and it is up to you to accept or not.

If another vessel offers assistance and then demands money once you are in dock I think that is totally unacceptable. There is however a but, in the salvage rules it is quite clear that if you accept a tow line from a salvage vessel a contract for salvage is deemed to exist. If you provide the tow line to the other vessel there is no contract. So if you allow the crew from the other vessel to board and set up there tow line you have been salvaged. if you trow them your own tow line you have not been salvaged. Any salvage fee also takes into account the danger to the vessel salvage. So if you are in a situation where the boat can reasonably be expected to be a total loss but for the salvage teams assistance a full fee can be due and then pro-rota depending on the degree of danger. It gets quite complicated so if someone is claiming salvage on your boat it should go through the receiver of wreck (UK) or similar in other countries.
From your post however I think this sounds like you called a Pan Pan, another private vessel came to you assistance and towed you in but where not a commercial towing company and have not claimed salvage. I think it is reasonable for you to offer to pay costs too them for fuel used and any other expenses. It may be that that is what they are actually asking for but put it very badly!

Perfect answer!

If reasonably possible, you are required to save lives, but not vessels.

I've towed many small commercial fishing vessels back into port. I see it as paying forward my own good karma. At sea, we all depend on each other.

I've been offered but never accepted reimbursement. But I've gotten plenty of free beers and dinners at the harbor bar. Commercial fishermen have long memories.

[Uricanejack]

Yes, No, Maybe.

Depends on the situation. And while I am no expert on US Law. US law only applies in the US.
So it depends where you are.
Will the coast guard tow. Maybe, maybe not, depends on the situation.

Go to the UK the coast guard don’t have boats. They call the RNLI. The RNLI don’t charge for their services.

Like I said I am no expert on US Law. But I suspect most of the relies aren’t experts on US Law ether.
Even those who are commercial tow operators.

Pan Pan yes you are obligated to respond. Unless stood down. However it’s a Pan Pan. This probably just means stand by. Of course it could become a MayDay.

MayDay, Required to respond.
This means you required to take reasonable action to save life. Without putting your own vessel and crew in peril.

Neither call requires you to attempt to tow.

This has been said already.

Hypothetically.

You hear a Pan Pan, the usual flat battery, out of gas. Whatever?
You are nearby?

You are required to respond. Which means stand by in case it gets worse.

You can tow, if you want to.
Probably a good idea to check if you are insured to tow. Probably not? Unless you have a tow boat.

So nice day, you decide to help out because you are nice.
Ok no problem.
Until your boat gets damaged. Or the boat you are towing gets damaged.
Now what?

Or same hypothetical.
Add wind, current, darkness, cold, lee shore, rocks. Whatever?
Life is now at risk.

Now the Pan Pan is a MayDay?

Sorry Dude, I’m not allowed to tow you away from danger because I’m not insured and it’s ileagle because I don’t have a tow license. And I might get a fine.
Your going to to have to jump of and swim for it while I try and pick you up.

Seriously?

No, you are going to offer the boat in peril a line and try and tow it to safety?
Read your insurance again, no you are not allowed to tow, except in an emergency.

Like I said you am not an expert on US Law but I would be extremely surprised to hear US law. Would restrict any vessel offering any vessel a tow to save life.

The fundamental principle behind Lloyd’s open form. Which is subject to all kinds of mythology.
Is to enable a vessel (and of course life) to be saved from dangers without negotiation.
There is no fee, there is no charge, the insurance companies will sort it out later according to what is considered reasonable given the circumstances.

I would be very surprised if these same principles were not available under US Law.

Should you happen to be a nearby vessel to a MayDay, Should you attempt tow a vessel to safety,
Should this result in damage or loss to you and your vessel.
Yes you can make a claim.

What will you receive,
Reasonable compensation.

[Wyamba]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

You beat me to it Ann. Most Aussies I know would think a case of beer is a fair payment.
Cheers

Yes and/or a donation if it’s Marine Rescue.