Help from Pan pan call

[Pcpete]

That’s appalling! I have never and will request or accept payment. I do however, advise the skipper he has to help “the next one”. Many have smiled and said it would be easier to just give me some money.

[CaptBobR]

Originally Posted by Cadence

You don't even need a tow boat operators license if the tow boat is 24' or less.
That's why you see so many steel mules made at 24' or ribs with a towing bitt at 24".

You are quoting,incorrectly, regulations for 46 CFR Subchapter M when you should be quoting regs for commercial assistance vessels.

[Greg Mason]

I would say that an act of a Good Samaritan does not involve a financial transaction, or liability, in any case, whether on land as in a car accident, or a marine emergency.

[paul2884]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I see a significant difference between a for profit commercial towing service and bubba with a rope.
Cold beer and dinner won't fire off the diesel. Asking for payment to cover expense is fair and should be discussed up front.

All our armchair attorneys will foam at the mouth but this goes on every day in the real world. How many people without a hack license have given rides to others ? No passenger endorsement? Sure, I'll give you a ride to the mall, just put fuel in to cover it.

Sounds like things in the US are very different, over the pond it is ok to accept payment when giving someone a lift I the car as long as it is not for profit (only to cover the costs), if skippering a vessel it is not commercial if not for profit you can make a reasonable charge to cover the costs but not make a profit out of it.



As for PanPan my understanding is that you are asking for assistance and could open yourself up to a claim if you don't make an agreement before commencing. We have given a tow and did not expect any reward, next time it might be us. I don't think many people would consider claiming salvage or even costs but then again I wouldn't consider driving into someone's car at the car park then leaving was reasonable and that happens all the time.

[DHHerndon]

You can only request a towing payment for Assistance Towing if you have a Merchant Marine Licence with an Assistance Towing endorsement. Otherwise, it is illegal to charge another boat for providing assistance.

[evm1024]

Pan Pan per wikipedia:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The radiotelephony message PAN-PAN is the international standard urgency signal that someone aboard a boat, ship, aircraft, or other vehicle uses to declare that they have a situation that is urgent,[1][2][3] but for the time being, does not pose an immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself.

Also by wikipedia:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Danger needs to be real but not necessarily immediate or absolute.[6] The subject of salvage must be in real danger, which means the property is exposed to damage or destruction.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_salvage

So by my take that the call of Pan Pan does not by its'self open you up to salvage claims. There is no real danger implicit in Pan Pan.

However, salvage laws are complex and have been abused or distorted many, many times.

I am not a lawyer and have not played one on TV. I have held a USCG Masters license with towing endorsement. My opinion is just that - opinion and is worth nothing if you end up in court (for example).

I have been letting my credentials expire for a while now. I want to be just a Good Sam and for my actions to be judged as a normal person coming to help or getting in trouble.

Will I help? Sure, do it a few times every year. Will I ask for money to help? No, just helping is reward enough. Will I accept money offered in gratitude after the aid is rendered? Yes, within reason, i.e. small change.

[COOGOR]

Did I overread or did nobody mention Lloyds open form which is a standard document / contract for marine salvage? Its not wrong to have a copy with you.....

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Greg Mason

I would say that an act of a Good Samaritan does not involve a financial transaction, or liability, in any case, whether on land as in a car accident, or a marine emergency.

Liability may be a concern in the US which is seriously in deed of torte reform.

[Briggers]

Having been on both ends of the tow at various times, I have never been asked for payment, nor would I dream of asking for it. Occasionally a beer or two has changed hands and been most welcomely received.
However, as far as Europe is concerned, you are never likely to get a free tow from any professional service outside of the UK, I was once asked to pay €20,000 for a 15nm tow, the coast guards boat was more than capable of towing us in but all they would do is get us off the vessel. I declined and eventually paid €5,000 but by then we were 20nm out.
Around the coast of the UK the Royal Nationals Lifeboat Institute, a voluntary service, will always rescue you and recover the boat - if possible and it’s entirely free. Any time, any weather.

[Capt. Mike Maurice]

I have had many rescue incidents over the years. Some of which I have responded to and others which I have ignored, declined to get involved, etc.

Some were too far to get to. One was about 20 feet away and might as well have been a thousand miles. One time the CG ordered me to take the passengers off, the operator declined and that suited me just fine. That boat did not sink and taking the passengers off would have been life threatening.

I have towed in numerous boats and never asked for any compensation.

What it boils down to is pretty simple. Know precisely what you are capable of, how you can apply it to the situation at hand. Saving lives and preventing injuries, yours as well as theirs is the first priority. Saving their boat is secondary.

The guy who was 20 feet away was in extreme danger and his boat. And I could do nothing. We were almost in as much danger as he was. We were short of fuel, the current was ferocious, he was aground, and he was wedged up against a pile dike. We were in danger of going aground, being thrown against the dike, which might have capsized us. As it was the risk to him(not his boat) was about equal to our risk and there were 3 of us who might get hurt or killed. We tried to get a rope to him, it failed. Even if we could have put him under tow the risk of pulling him off the dike was so severe that it seemed better to let him wait for other help with more suitable equipment than we had.

In other words, don't put your boat and crew in harm's way just to save property. A calculated risk to save lives or prevent injuries should be carefully considered.

[Shrew]

I think a subtle nuance here is the asking/expectation of money vs acceptance of money.

To a degree we can only assume intent as described by the OP, who appears to have dropped this grenade, then disappeared without clarification.

Originally Posted by pr2501

Hello

I would like to know if the boat which answers to Pan Pan call, has the right to ask for payment, after it pulls you to the port?

This sounds very much like expectation of compensation. That is not the same as the large number of good samaritan examples provided. It certainly feels different than if worded as "allowed to take any compensation offered".
The verbiage of the original post didn't sound like 'gas/beer money' as a thank you.

That brings me back to the 'After'. If you're expecting to be compensated, then not saying so ahead of time feels unethical to me.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Bill_Giles

Just to be clear: a Mayday is accepted as an All Ships alert without specifying who you expect to listen to your message - you want everybody to hear and help if possible. Whereas Pan Pan should be made to a specific station. This can be to the Coastguard, to ‘All Ships’ or to ‘All Ships in the area of.....‘ for example.

Make up your mind


I was taught (and teach) that you don't address a pan pan to anyone.


To issue a Pan-Pan call on Channel 16 of your VHF radio:

1. Transmit "Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan."
2. Say "This is (name of boat three times, call letters once)."
3. Report your location.
4. Report the nature of your urgent situation.
5. Report the kind of assistance needed.
6. Report the number of people on board.
7. Describe the boat.

[skenn_ie]

One of the things that I like about mariners and airmen is that if someone needs help, they give it and don't count the cost. The one (local) occasion that someone asked for payment, a few months later, THEY got into trouble ! Karma works. As for a professional rescue service, I would expect them to talk on the radio and ask if you were prepared to pay. Otherwise, no contract, no payment demanded. A gratuity is a different matter.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by StuM

Make up your mind


I was taught (and teach) that you don't address a pan pan to anyone.


To issue a Pan-Pan call on Channel 16 of your VHF radio:

1. Transmit "Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan."
2. Say "This is (name of boat three times, call letters once)."
3. Report your location.
4. Report the nature of your urgent situation.
5. Report the kind of assistance needed.
6. Report the number of people on board.
7. Describe the boat.

How does someone address a Pan Pan specifically? I thought it was just an advisory that there could be a situation so keep your ears open.

[JordanH]

Originally Posted by Cadence

How does someone address a Pan Pan specifically? I thought it was just an advisory that there could be a situation so keep your ears open.

There are three levels...
Mayday - When your ship or a life is at risk of being lost.
Pan-Pan - When you or your ship are in a situation that is urgent, but not in immediate risk of danger.
Securite - When you have information about a safety concern.


An example of a Mayday call is easy... e.g. You're sinking.
An example of a Pan-Pan call is... e.g. You're a power boat and your engine is dead because you're out of fuel. You are calling to request assistance and may be requesting fuel or a tow.
An example of a Securite call is... e.g. You spot a shipping container floating in a channel and you want to announce where it is located so nobody runs into it.


You can address a pan-pan call by responding to the caller and asking them what assistance they require; If you are unable to provide that assistance, you can pass that offer to pass that along to someone who can.

The answer to this question, and the one posed in this thread, lets say you are 30nm off the coast. Boat A makes a pan-pan call because their engines died. Boat B is a large power boat and offers to render assistance by turning his boat around and towing Boat A back to port. 30nm is a long way to go and there was significant fuel cost.
It is likely fair for Boat B to request compensation for fuel, maybe even time, if it isn't offered. Perhaps Boat B would have been satisfied if Skipper A had offered compensation but decided that when Skipper A had no intentions of showing gratitude, maybe Skipper B requested payment to make a point. *shrug* who knows.

Or lets use another example. Boat C leaves the dock, and gets 3 minutes out of the harbour, his engine conks out and he panics. Makes a pan-pan call and gets a tow back in to the docks by Boat D. Skipper D demands $200 only after the 3 minute tow because his "beer drinking time is valuable" and Bubba needs to get his drink on. That's not particularly ethical.

So... requesting payment really can go either way based on the situation. But since a Pan-Pan call is NOT an urgent situation and just asking for assistance, you are not REQUIRED to give it and you are not REQUIRED to pay for it because nobody is at risk.
(Edit: This last statement wasn't clear. You are not REQUIRED to give assistance for free. You are not REQUIRED to accept assistance for fee. That's what I meant to say.)

But hey... if someone asks you for help, you help them.