Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

[john61ct]

I personally would recommend avoiding the Indian product, and only purchase through OP or an outfit closer to you recommended by Bruce, in order to take advantage of solid US-based warranty service.

Originally Posted by rwells36

Dear Mr. Richard

Thanks for your mail to us.

Yes the batteries are in stock and could be export to your place direct from Ahmadabad, India. which may takes a time around 6-8 weeks or you can buy it from our US Office in Washington if you are in USA.

What is the Washington address then of this direct sales office of the Indian parent, DC or the state? What is their pricing on the G31? Shipping/handling charges?

And most important, how are they (direct sales) handling warranty returns of the Indian-made units?

And finally, what gives you the impression you are communicating with the owner?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Pete7

T105s are £140 ($180) incl delivery in the UK so not the cheap option

Seems cheap to me including delivery, those guys are heavy!

I suspect you aren't comparing them to true deep-cycle batteries, just ones labeled as such?

What do Rolls/Surette go for there?

Out of this list http://energy.sourceguides.com/busin...atteries.shtml

I only recognize Rolls and Trojan.

[rwells36]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I personally would recommend avoiding the Indian product, and only purchase through OP or an outfit closer to you recommended by Bruce, in order to take advantage of solid US-based warranty service.



What is the Washington address then of this direct sales office of the Indian parent, DC or the state? What is their pricing on the G31? Shipping/handling charges?

And most important, how are they (direct sales) handling warranty returns of the Indian-made units?

And finally, what gives you the impression you are communicating with the owner?

Thanks Bruce. He can answer that for you John. Otherwise a quick Google will do the same.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I don't **think** anyone is arguing against paralleled banks offering some greater level of redundancy.

I just don't see what that fact has to do with using 12V batteries as opposed to lower voltage in series, which can of course then be paralleled.

This is the first post that you have indicated any inclination about banks
in parallel. Every single post has been about the virtues of cells in series. So how is anyone supposed to "think" you mean something different than what you post.

Just out of curiosity, what does your house bank look like? How do you use it? When was it installed?

We'd like to know what you actually have on your boat.

[ramblinrod]

[QUOTE=john61ct;2374195]

If you mean true deep-cycle batteries, only a tiny fraction of available models are sold in 12V form factors.

Talk about weasel words, "True Deep Cycle". Really. If there is no standard definition for "Deep Cycle", then what the $%$% is a "True Deep Cycle".

99.99% of people buying batteries **labeled as** "marine" or deep cycled are being deceived, not getting their money's worth, and their banks won't last near half as long as they would if they were better informed.

Is the above also something with which you would "disagree"?

Yes, I absolutely disagree with this.

As with most products for sale, there are various degrees of "quality" and "price" in 12 Vdc FLA batteries.

That there are better quality batteries for more money, doesn't make the lesser quality batteries "Not True".

Else, every single product in the world would have "true" (and presumably "false") versions, based on quality.

So who is to decide what is a "true" or "false" product.

I'm sorry, but this is all #$%$^.

The battery manufacturers have different designs for "starting", "dual purpose", and "deep cycle", and they have different designs, typically higher quality, AND MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE for commercial and industrial use.

That the deep cycle model in the lower end of marine batteries is a different design than a start battery, makes it a "true" deep cycle if the manufacturer defines it as such, as there is no "standard" definition of deep cycle based on form factor, quality, or performance.

So Joe customer walks into a marine store, and asks to buy a battery.

Fred salesman asks him how he intends to use it.

Joe indicates it is a "deep cycle" application.

Fred shows him what he has to offer at various price points.

Joe, being a "reasonable" cruiser, considers his "budget" and selects the battery that best suits his performance and financial needs.

Done.

If Joe picks the less costly "deep cycle" battery, it is no less a "true deep cycle" than a less expensive smart phone is not a "true smart phone".

It's just lower quality for a lower price.

So yes, I completely disagree with you.

The customer got exactly what he paid for.

And if Joe paid 5 times as much for the Rolls 12Vdc Battery, he would have got a better quality battery (in my opinion), that may last twice or 3 times as long.

So which choice represents best value for money?

I am sure if Joe said, "Give me the best battery you've got, money is no object!" he would get a completely different battery than if he said, "What's the cheapest?", (if the vendor even carried higher quality).

(Vendors tend to stock what the majority of consumers wish to purchase. It's called "business", and its a good idea to make money vs take up floor space with old, expensive, stock you can't move.)

How was Joe "deceived" if he gets exactly what he asks for and pays for?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, if you don't post what you mean, all we can do is guess.
We? I think it's just you.

A previous poster indicated a bank consisting of 2Vdc cells in series is the ultimate. Based on the content of your post, I thought you were agreeing with that statement.

If this is not the case, why don't share with us what you do mean?

The previous poster is right. I do agree with him.

How so? If one is designing a 12 Vdc system, how does using 12 Vdc batteries limit options, other than not using batteries of different voltage. There are certainly sufficient options of 12 Vdc batteries available to meet any reasonable cruisers budget and life expectancy needs.

Not real deep cycle batteries, and not in sizes (for obvious reasons) big enough to avoid unnesessary paralled batteries when more capacity is needed.

I disagree. A programmable loading device can help to monitor battery capacity. (An analog 12 Vdc load tester will do pretty much the same thing for 12 Vdc FLA batteries, albeit with a 100 A fixed load, for way, way, way less money.) Neither of these devices will do anything to address the lack of redundancy in a 12 Vdc house bank consisting of a 2 Vdc series string.

I'll comment to this topic later

How so?

a) If a 2 Vdc cell fails, in a 6 x 2 Vdc bank, it will reduce the voltage available by 2.15 Vdc (at full charge). For all intents and purposes, the bank is dead,
until that cell is replaced.

No it's not dead. It's a 10Vdc bank. It can feed any electronic devices in a boat with DC to DC converter https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...263-ND/4477521
Most quality inverters also accept lower than the nominal 12v voltage.

b) If a cell in a 12 Vdc house bank battery fails, it will reduce the voltage available by 2.15 Vdc, until the defective battery is disconnected (by simply flipping the isolation switch or disconnecting the terminal).

That is if you happen to detect the failure in time and what kind of failure is in question. Worst case scenario, and not unknown, is short circuited cell which can destroy your paralled bank and even your boat totally. Best case uneven loading and charging shortens the life of other batteries in the bank untill the failure is detected. How often an avarage sailor is equalizing and capacity testing their batteries individually?

After which, all other batteries in the bank should now function properly.
Or not..

The shore power charger will still work, the alternator will still work, the solar charge controller will still work, and the wind or water powered generator will still work. Nothing else to do, but charge up the depleted bank by normal means. At one's leisure, they can replace the defective battery, to restore full capacity.

And 6 x 2Vdc user can put a spare 2Vdc battery in place of the faulty one

So please, enlighten me with how a series string of 2 Vdc cells, has adequate redundancy in a 12 Vdc nominal system to compensate for a shorted cell?

You tell me have you ever heard 2Vdc deep cycle battery shorted


Poor (open) Connection:

Series String: All current stops. Dead. Nothing works until repair made, despite how many good connections there are in the string. Fix now to get anything to work.

Instantly notes the fault. Disconnect or replace the faulty battery. See above.

Parallel Bank: 12 Vdc still available. Everything still works (except the battery(s) disconnected by the open circuit). Fix at your leisure to restore full capacity.

If and when you come aware of the fault, that is if you don't wake up to the smell of battery acid or worse..

Internal Resistance Differs:

Series String: Charge current and capacity through all cells is reduced until defective cell replaced.

Again, instant knowledge of the issue due longer charging times.

Parallel Bank: Lower impedance batteries accept greater charge current, (as ususal).

And after charging them up they start to charge the high impedance battery. Reduces battery life..

Water Level:

If someone neglects to add water to a vented battery, catastrophic battery failure will eventually occur.

Hydro caps recommended

Series String: The entire string is disabled, and everything is dead, until the defective cell is replaced.

See above

Parallel Bank: Disconnect the defective battery, the rest of the bank works fine, operating all 12 Vdc devices until the battery is replaced to restore full capacity.

I don't expect you to change your mind.

BR Teddy

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Seems cheap to me including delivery, those guys are heavy!

I suspect you aren't comparing them to true deep-cycle batteries, just ones labeled as such?

I am using Varta Hobby 110AH, there is a height problem which means T105s won't fit without the berth height being altered.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/813010-Varta...A28-P3641.html

Originally Posted by john61ct

What do Rolls/Surette go for there?

Retail, don't ask and certainly more than Iam willing to pay.

Rolls Series 5 Batteries | Barden UK

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I am using Varta Hobby 110AH, there is a height problem which means T105s won't fit without the berth height being altered.

That certainly is a problem.. But despite what I have said earlier. paralled 12Vdc batteries can be used just know the facts and risks involved and use them accordingly..

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

That certainly is a problem.. But despite what I have said earlier. paralled 12Vdc batteries can be used just know the facts and risks involved and use them accordingly..

What facts and risks , it's a 12v flood lead acid battery, can't get much simpler than that surely?

They are currently 6 years old and always been topped up by solar so will be interesting to see how long the continue to provide a useful charge.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Pete7

What facts and risks , it's a 12v flood lead acid battery, can't get much simpler than that surely?

They are currently 6 years old and always been topped up by solar so will be interesting to see how long the continue to provide a useful charge.

To mention the most dangerous one is the accumulation of shedded lead in the bottom of the cells. If this silt reaches the plates the cell shorts and the battery as it is now only 10v starts to drain the other paralled batteries in the bank. That is more likely to happen with old well served batteries than with abused and sulfated ones.
Despite Rod hates the frase, "true" deep cycle batteries have more reserve space below the plates to avoid such issues. That's on reason why they are higher..

BR Teddy

[ka4wja]

Rick,
I'd like to answer your question and point you in the right direction (without entering into the ancillary argument)!!

Originally Posted by rwells36

Is this possible? If so, how?
Also, what are the pros and cons of this approach?

The answer is, of course, yes it is possible...(and many that desire extreme duty electrical system and/or many years of deep-cycling use multiple individual "2-volt cells")
But, I've never seen/heard anyone on-board use "4-volt batteries"...sort of an odd combination of two 2-volt cells....no reason that it wouldn't work, BUT...
But, having these odd "4-volt" batteries means you're at the mercy of the source of these particular "4-volt" batteries, and that (in my opinion, and I suspect everyone else's as well) is very big "con" of the approach you describe...
(please note that if you were to use "2-volt cells" you do gain in both the versatility/redundancy as well as in the extended number of really deep cycles...as well as usually gain the ability to "fit" the batteries into the odd / limited space on-board, but this last point all depends on your boat...)

{Full disclosure here....
In addition to actually using "2-Volt cells" on my current boat (which are GREAT!), I've also used big "true-deep-cycle" Rolls 12vdc "8D's", as well as "6-volt" Golf Cart (CG2) batteries, on boats over the decades....
And, although I majored in physics and have run my own electronics firm for decades, I'm a longtime offshore sailor/cruiser/voyager, and I do not have near the experience in batteries / electrical systems that Maine Sail does, so I would seriously read his info / listen to his advice....(not that I'm ignorant about these things, as I've done my own electrical work and have taught seminars on these matters, it's just that Maine has more experience with all the different systems and variables!!}

Originally Posted by rwells36

In order to get around the backorder of a particular battery supplier for their 12v product I am considering the purchase of their 4v products which have no backorders and then wiring three (3) of these 4v 450Ah in series to achieve 12v. However, I desire to have a total of 900Ah at 12v (not 24v). Is this possible? If so, how?

Also, what are the pros and cons of this approach?

Here are some facts: (and some clarifying opinion...)
a) ALL lead acid batteries (whether "wet", "gel", or "AGM") use "2-volt cells"....
b) A "4-volt" battery uses two 2-volt cells, a "6-volt" battery uses three 2-volt cells, a "8-volt" battery uses four 2-volt cells, and a "12-volt" battery uses six 2-volt cells...
c) If your required voltage is 12 volts, then you consequently have various ways to achieve that... (and whatever configuration you use, opinion is almost universal that having more than one "battery" is best...not necessarily more than one "bank", but more than one "battery"...)
d) What some refer to as "deep-cycle" or "true-deep-cycle" batteries are batteries designed with quite thick positive plates, allowing for many "deep cycles"....and, if you look at the positive plate thickness, you can quite easily see which batteries are better suited to many years of deep-cycling and which ones are not... (Crown and Rolls are among the best in this regard, but are a tiny bit more expensive in A/H per $, and some Trojan's, such as their L-16's, are pretty good too....please see my earlier postings regarding positive plate thickness, etc.)
e) In general, similarly-spec'd but less expensive / less quality batteries that are regularly fully recharged (and well cared-for) will out-last and out-preform more expensive / higher quality batteries that are not fully recharged regularly / poorly-maintained (and abused)....
This is why the BIG variable that nobody here can know is: YOU, the boat owner and guy who designs the charging system / routine, and does the maintenance, etc....YOU are the big variable that has a rather significant impact on battery performance and life!!

While some might want to quibble over those above facts....fact is they are true!!


Here are some photos of my current 1125 A/H 12vdc battery bank...
These are Rolls 2-volt cells....eighteen in series / parallel...
six in series, making up one "12 volt battery", and then three of these "12 volt" batteries in parallel...
[note that I took these photos before installing the big battery fuse, battery hold-down planks, and finishing-off the wiring routing/securing...]

There are three Rolls/Surrettes 12-EHG-375PM's…rated at 375 A/H each (at the normal "20-hr rate")…made up of six each 375 A/H 2-volt cells, externally connected together...(each cell weight in at 36 lbs!!)
http://rollsbattery.com/wp-content/u.../12EHG375P.pdf

Battery









And, Pete....these batteries are only an inch to 1.25" taller (including the HydraCaps) than the 8D's they replaced....I think almost any production yacht or battery box will fit them....(they are not the "tall" L-16's)....the Rolls battery boxes would ad another inch in height, but if you don't need their boxes, as most of us have battery boxes already, then they're about one inch taller than an 8D)

Originally Posted by Pete7

As to those 2v batteries, very nice but how many production yachts could take them without serious modifications?

Thomm...
It depends on what type of connections you're talking about....I've seen some pretty crappy batteries with mediocre internal connections/structure and seen plenty of well-made external connections....
The Rolls cells that I use are designed to be bolted together....and I've never had an problem with 'em!! (have a look)

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'm thinking internal is much better.

External connections on batteries located on boats is where most of your problems occur.

So the few connections there are the better..........

Rick, I do hope this answers your questions (without delving into argument)....
Bottom line:
Yes, you can obtain your 12vdc, 900A/H battery bank in various ways...but, I'd not recommend using such an odd-ball size and voltage as "4-volt" batteries....not at all...
"2-volt" cells...Yes...
"6-volt" Golf Cart (GC2) batteries...Yes...
"12-volt"...yes...
But, not the odd-ball "4-volt"...


Fair winds..

John

[john61ct]

Most excellent post

Originally Posted by ka4wja

And, although I majored in physics and have run my own electronics firm for decades, I'm a longtime offshore sailor/cruiser/voyager, and I do not have near the experience in batteries / electrical systems that Maine Sail does, so I would seriously read his info / listen to his advice....(not that I'm ignorant about these things, as I've done my own electrical work and have taught seminars on these matters, it's just that Maine has more experience with all the different systems and variables!!

Absolutely agree.

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

So Joe customer walks into a marine store, and asks to buy a battery.

That would IMO be a very silly thing to do.

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

what the $%$% is a "True Deep Cycle"

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

This is the first post that you have indicated any inclination about banks in parallel. Every single post has been about the virtues of cells in series.

Absolutely false, #31 & 58 I explicitly acknowledged your point about paralleling for redundancy.

[rwells36]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Rick,
I'd like to answer your question and point you in the right direction (without entering into the ancillary argument)!!
The answer is, of course, yes it is possible...(and many that desire extreme duty electrical system and/or many years of deep-cycling use multiple individual "2-volt cells")
But, I've never seen/heard anyone on-board use "4-volt batteries"...sort of an odd combination of two 2-volt cells....no reason that it wouldn't work, BUT...
But, having these odd "4-volt" batteries means you're at the mercy of the source of these particular "4-volt" batteries, and that (in my opinion, and I suspect everyone else's as well) is very big "con" of the approach you describe...
(please note that if you were to use "2-volt cells" you do gain in both the versatility/redundancy as well as in the extended number of really deep cycles...as well as usually gain the ability to "fit" the batteries into the odd / limited space on-board, but this last point all depends on your boat...)

{Full disclosure here....
In addition to actually using "2-Volt cells" on my current boat (which are GREAT!), I've also used big "true-deep-cycle" Rolls 12vdc "8D's", as well as "6-volt" Golf Cart (CG2) batteries, on boats over the decades....
And, although I majored in physics and have run my own electronics firm for decades, I'm a longtime offshore sailor/cruiser/voyager, and I do not have near the experience in batteries / electrical systems that Maine Sail does, so I would seriously read his info / listen to his advice....(not that I'm ignorant about these things, as I've done my own electrical work and have taught seminars on these matters, it's just that Maine has more experience with all the different systems and variables!!}


Here are some facts: (and some clarifying opinion...)
a) ALL lead acid batteries (whether "wet", "gel", or "AGM") use "2-volt cells"....
b) A "4-volt" battery uses two 2-volt cells, a "6-volt" battery uses three 2-volt cells, a "8-volt" battery uses four 2-volt cells, and a "12-volt" battery uses six 2-volt cells...
c) If your required voltage is 12 volts, then you consequently have various ways to achieve that... (and whatever configuration you use, opinion is almost universal that having more than one "battery" is best...not necessarily more than one "bank", but more than one "battery"...)
d) What some refer to as "deep-cycle" or "true-deep-cycle" batteries are batteries designed with quite thick positive plates, allowing for many "deep cycles"....and, if you look at the positive plate thickness, you can quite easily see which batteries are better suited to many years of deep-cycling and which ones are not... (Crown and Rolls are among the best in this regard, but are a tiny bit more expensive in A/H per $, and some Trojan's, such as their L-16's, are pretty good too....please see my earlier postings regarding positive plate thickness, etc.)
e) In general, similarly-spec'd but less expensive / less quality batteries that are regularly fully recharged (and well cared-for) will out-last and out-preform more expensive / higher quality batteries that are not fully recharged regularly / poorly-maintained (and abused)....
This is why the BIG variable that nobody here can know is: YOU, the boat owner and guy who designs the charging system / routine, and does the maintenance, etc....YOU are the big variable that has a rather significant impact on battery performance and life!!

While some might want to quibble over those above facts....fact is they are true!!


Here are some photos of my current 1125 A/H 12vdc battery bank...
These are Rolls 2-volt cells....eighteen in series / parallel...
six in series, making up one "12 volt battery", and then three of these "12 volt" batteries in parallel...
[note that I took these photos before installing the big battery fuse, battery hold-down planks, and finishing-off the wiring routing/securing...]

There are three Rolls/Surrettes 12-EHG-375PM's…rated at 375 A/H each (at the normal "20-hr rate")…made up of six each 375 A/H 2-volt cells, externally connected together...(each cell weight in at 36 lbs!!)
http://rollsbattery.com/wp-content/u.../12EHG375P.pdf

Battery









And, Pete....these batteries are only an inch to 1.25" taller (including the HydraCaps) than the 8D's they replaced....I think almost any production yacht or battery box will fit them....(they are not the "tall" L-16's)....the Rolls battery boxes would ad another inch in height, but if you don't need their boxes, as most of us have battery boxes already, then they're about one inch taller than an 8D)





Thomm...
It depends on what type of connections you're talking about....I've seen some pretty crappy batteries with mediocre internal connections/structure and seen plenty of well-made external connections....
The Rolls cells that I use are designed to be bolted together....and I've never had an problem with 'em!! (have a look)






Rick, I do hope this answers your questions (without delving into argument)....
Bottom line:
Yes, you can obtain your 12vdc, 900A/H battery bank in various ways...but, I'd not recommend using such an odd-ball size and voltage as "4-volt" batteries....not at all...
"2-volt" cells...Yes...
"6-volt" Golf Cart (GC2) batteries...Yes...
"12-volt"...yes...
But, not the odd-ball "4-volt"...


Fair winds..

John

John,

What a breath of fresh air! Going with 8 12v AGM Fire Fly in series / parallel and have hired engineers for drawings and installation.

Thanks for all the input and posts from everyone.

Cheers!

Rick

[ranger58sb]

Issue complicated by religion... and by specific details of use in a specific installation... by degree of risk, and a user's risk tolerance... and by money.

Conclusions I've drawn from reading about battery stuff for the last 10 years or so:

- Some batteries are "better" than others (but purpose matters)
(corollary: some "deep cycle" batteries are "deeper" than others)
- Some installations are "better" than others (but specifics apply)
- Users often kill batteries
- Lab cycles aren't representative of real-world battery life
- OTOH, manufacturers' lab cycles are often all that's available for comparison
- Parallel wiring is useful (many times)
- Serial wiring is useful (sometimes)
- Redundancy is good (if affordable)
- Charging equipment and regime are important (see above: users kill batteries)
- Solar charging can be good, while adding (some) expense)
- Wind charging can be good (if owners and neighbors can stand the noise)
- FLA, AGM, and gel batteries can all be good (I dunno squat about LiFEPO4, etc.)
- FLA, AGM, and gel batteries all have their pros and cons (ditto)
- I've found it useful to give LOTS of weight to recognized expert opinion
(Maine Sail, Nigel Calder, etc.)
- especially when supported by actual factoids
- and so forth...

Using an example from the thread: a group of six 2V batteries in series to 12V can work (assuming 12V is the goal)... unless one or more of the 2V batteries craps out. That's not a showstopper if equipment on board can run on reduced voltage. It's also not a showstopper if there are spare 2V batteries available (on board, in some cases). And batteries don't always crap out, so "risk" is a moving target in this case.

Another example from the thread: two 6V golf cart batteries wired in series to 12V. Theoretically good, assuming manufacturer's reported lab cycles might better than other batteries. (Not always the case, maybe.) But then if one of those 6V batteries craps out... then maybe not so good, at least temporarily. In some cases, "temporarily" can be no big deal. In other cases, maybe immediate fix is more critical.

And so forth (again).

I've found it useful to have all that kind of background in the back of my mind, when planning a maintenance replacement or an upgrade for our boat.

Even then, it seems like a recommended coarse of action can be good... unless it's not... depending on that specific installation/risk/cost/etc. stuff. Even if some of those COAs have been influenced by religion.

But then it's down to me (and my electrician) to choose the way forward.

-Chris

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by rwells36

Going with 8 12v AGM Fire Fly in series / parallel and have hired engineers for drawings and installation.

Thought you're trying to build a 12V system? If so, you'd only need to parallel those eight 12V batteries.

FWIW, at this point, I've read fewer batteries is better. If true, four 200-Ah 12V batteries in parallel would theoretically be better than eight 100-Ah 12V batteries in parallel. Not first-hand knowledge; ref is Nigel Calder, I think.

-Chris