Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sstuller

Reading these posts it is hard to believe that commercial sailing vessels sailed around the world for hundreds of years sans engine.Today's sailors are afraid to leave the dock without a diesel. The conclusion can only be that they are power boaters disguised as sailors. Be honest with yourselves. Thanks.

And they had to deal with scurvy, didn't have refrigeration...

And they didn't always make port at their intended location; just did miss... by maybe a hundred miles or so...

And "making port" often meant anchoring a few hundred yards or so away from shore, loading and offloading via lighters under oars...

But maybe they liked it that way. Maybe they really didn't want to ever improve stuff like that, because after all, they were sailors...



FWIW, leaving and returning to a slip in most of the marinas we've seen around here wouldn't be possible under sail. And many (most?) marinas prohibit that, anyway. I don't see lots of folks rowing their keelboats into and out of marinas. I deduce (although it may be difficult for you to believe a powerboater can do mental stuff like that) some kind of mechanical or electrical propulsion is a useful thing to have.

I also see many sailors seeming to enjoy their boating, over longish distances, even though there's essentially no wind worth mentioning on the Chesapeake in most of July and August. Oh, Mon Dieu! They don't have their sails up! Gasp! They're motoring! How can that be? They're sailors!! No, they must not be sailors, otherwise they'd still be in port drinking rum and playing whist or some such. Or maybe somehow they must have solved their long-distance propulsion issue, while still considering themselves to be sailors. Hmmm.... Wonder how they did that...

-Chris

[john61ct]

Here's how to do it.

Not exactly just repowering an existing hull

https://www.wired.com/story/energy-o...rgy-voyage/amp

[ranger58sb]

That's kind of nifty. No token homage to sailors at all, though.

Wonder how much that spaceship cost to create. And I wonder what kind of speeds it makes -- although that's just for curiosity's sake.

-Chris

[john61ct]

It does sail, in fact I imagine that will provide the vast majority of its energy.

Millions.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by raybobsky

So it is all a question of what you want to do!

The great loop? We proved it possible!

Daily cruising? Yes and into the night without an issue, oh , btw, did I mention, with refrigerator running 24/7.

48 hours non stop on the Gulf of Mexico.

Yes all possible!

Possible and viable are not the same things.

It's POSSIBLE to row across the Atlantic.
It's not a VIABLE option for your average cruiser on a comfortable boat to row across the Atlantic in a reasonable time frame.

Give us performance specs so we can see how VIABLE it is. 48hr on the Gulf with no indication of speeds, distances covered, currents or other conditions means very little. It's not hard to make a boat that using a combination of cooperative currents and very low power with a tail wind making 50-100miles in 48hrs. In fact, it would be hard not to make that many miles in ideal conditions.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by john61ct

It does sail, in fact I imagine that will provide the vast majority of its energy.

I don't see a mast in the pics...

?

-Chris

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Possible and viable are not the same things.

It's POSSIBLE to row across the Atlantic.
It's not a VIABLE option for your average cruiser on a comfortable boat to row across the Atlantic in a reasonable time frame.

Give us performance specs so we can see how VIABLE it is. 48hr on the Gulf with no indication of speeds, distances covered, currents or other conditions means very little. It's not hard to make a boat that using a combination of cooperative currents and very low power with a tail wind making 50-100miles in 48hrs. In fact, it would be hard not to make that many miles in ideal conditions.

Exactly. Without knowing anything about the boat, the trip and systems the accomplishment really contributes nothing towards proving that electric is viable.

I am quite certain that it is possible to build an electric powered boat with all the capabilities of a diesel powered boat but it will come at a much higher financial cost and a much greater complexity in systems. It also eliminates one of the major arguments for electric IE no diesel engine with the associated noise, smell, maintenance etc since the solution requires use of a generator.

Going electric is a bit more practical for cats due to the much larger area for mounting solar panels but still requires a very significant investment in batteries. However a few years ago a cat manufacturer built a number of boats that were all electric and if I recall included regen and at last report all or all but one or two had ditched the electric and installed diesel engines.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I don't see a mast in the pics...

?

-Chris

Sorry, you're right, crossed wires, that was from the bit about his previous boat.

They also keep writing "sailing" around the world

[Bullshooter]

Originally Posted by KTP

I don't see that at all. Our newish 2017 Ford F150 has a lot of aluminum instead of steel (lighter weight), a 2.7L dual turbo engine that puts out 325hp but still gets 23mpg on the hwy. We had a 5 liter 1994 F150 which got about 17mpg and was slower.

I'm just saying that the basic Ford pickup for example went from 145 hp, 15/20 MPG and 3960 lbs in 1995 to almost doubling in hp in 2017 (283 hp) with only a 20% increase in MPG (18/24), with roughly the same weight -1995: 3960 lbs vs 2017: 4100 lbs.

So with all the improvement in efficiency that went in to the modern marvels of the newest trucks, we could have produced a truck that say, doubled in MPG with a smaller increase in hp. And per a64's point that we could conserve more energy, who needs 325 hp? A percentage actually do, but most of my friends drive pickups, and for the vast majority of the time, they are used as a passenger vehicle. I may be the exception, but even I am not pulling a boat very much.

Data was from MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos

[Augi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Possible and viable are not the same things.

It's POSSIBLE to row across the Atlantic.
It's not a VIABLE option for your average cruiser on a comfortable boat to row across the Atlantic in a reasonable time frame.

Give us performance specs so we can see how VIABLE it is. 48hr on the Gulf with no indication of speeds, distances covered, currents or other conditions means very little. It's not hard to make a boat that using a combination of cooperative currents and very low power with a tail wind making 50-100miles in 48hrs. In fact, it would be hard not to make that many miles in ideal conditions.

I agree. The purveyors of EP and hybrid solutions would be smart to commission independent, extensive side by side, testing with different size and type of boats and make available the results. Included in that ought to be independent maintenance records.

Most everyone would prefer EP versus diesel or gas(no smell, quieter), if it fits the intended use, costs no more and is dependable. However, it is not known well yet how the EP or hybrid set up will work in different types of boats in different conditions / scenarios. After independent, extensive, side by side testing is done then it will be seen what intended uses make sense for hybrid propulsion or EP. Until then doubts in potential users mind of EP or hybrid will prevent them from going the EP or hybrid route.

[BigBeakie]

OK, I'm in. I'd love to do a side by side comparison. I really, really would.

I'll offer our new boat to compare against equivalent diesel powered cat. 50 foot - 12 to 13 ton - 20 HP (15kW) engines & use whatever props and gearing you want on the diesels.

We'll do both calm water, and motoring directly into the biggest wind we can find. We'll make sure it is filmed and have independent observers onboard both vessels.

Any takers? Maybe a sailing publication would be interested to observe & write it up?


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[Augi]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

OK, I'm in. I'd love to do a side by side comparison. I really, really would.

I'll offer our new boat to compare against equivalent diesel powered cat. 50 foot - 12 to 13 ton - 20 HP (15kW) engines & use whatever props and gearing you want on the diesels.

We'll do both calm water, and motoring directly into the biggest wind we can find. We'll make sure it is filmed and have independent observers onboard both vessels.

Any takers? Maybe a sailing publication would be interested to observe & write it up?


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OV or Torqueedo or similar are the ones that ought to WANT to commission true independent, side by side testing in identical boats. Until potential users are convinced they understand all the trade offs in different conditions for a boat similar to the boat the user plans to be sailing most potential users are going to be reluctant to make the switch to EP.

[BigBeakie]

Well there's a Saba 50 with OV SD15's that would make a good case study. All I know about that boat is that under EP it cruises at 7 knots, but at what power level is that?

There are identical charter Cats on Mauritius (pretty windy there) with 10kW SD10's on one and 22kW (30HP) diesel saildrives on the other. I've spoken to those guys about the comparison as part of our due diligence, very favourable report on the EP, huge $$ differences in maintenance. I think there are data on the OV website about that.




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[a64pilot]

For most smaller average cruising boats, a high thrust 9.9 outboard would be as effective or even moreso than electric drive, plus it would impact sailing abilities to an almost zero degree.
Waay cheaper too, of course not it’s not viable in any significant seas, but is electric? By that I mean power and range.
As far as Solar being able to drive any significant propulsion, not without seriously impacting sailing performance, cause your going to need several KW, I have 1KW for house loads, and it’s not often enough, just for house loads.

The truck thing is largely because for whatever reason full size pickups and SUVs are exempt from corporate average fuel economy standards.
And the “eco boost” engine getting 20+ MPG? Maybe with Grandma driving, one I drove often got 15 MPG as reported on its screen.
Eco boost isn’t that just a little insulting to name a V6 turbo, eco boost? Marketing at play.
Ford F-150 eco boost forum on milage, see what they are getting.
https://www.f150ecoboost.net/forum/6...l-mileage.html
Prius gets 60 MPG at 60 MPH, 50 at 70 MPH and 40 at 80 MPH, and that is an eight yr old one with 217,000 miles on it.
Prius is heavier than a Corolla and about the same as an Accord, at a little over 3,000 lbs.


Here on the Tesla forum, an owner compares electricity cost to gas cost on his Prius, and it’s a wash, look for yourself.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cost-drive-tesla


Guys I know I’m sounding negative, but really I am not. I’m being realistic, nobody wants it to work more than I do, but most of this stuff is pie in the sky stuff and the public are fools. They want full size SUV’s and pickup trucks that really get about 15 MPG, and have had the Politicians change the rules so they can get what they want, and this was way prior to current administration so don’t think that.

As it is, the cruising community is other than the people who live in the Alaska outback, the most conservative community of people I have ever met from a fossil fuels perspective.
On average, our little sailboats with their lawnmower size Diesel engines have almost no impact, compared to the average US citizen.

Average US house uses approx 33 KW of electricity a day, how much does an average cruiser use, when at the dock? Less than a third I bet, and that is when we are at the dock.

Average US driver burns 656 gls of gas per year, and that is per driver, households of course have a min of two drivers, often more.
So did you and your partner burn over 1,300 gls of fuel last year?
Not many sailboats can even come close to that number and I’d bet not many Trawlers either.

Electric drive boats are neat I guess even Al Gore has BS1. On a lake in Tenn. however in truth the fuel one would offset is negligible at best.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

And the “eco boost” engine getting 20+ MPG? Maybe with Grandma driving, one I drove often got 15 MPG as reported on its screen.
Ford F-150 eco boost forum on milage, see what they are getting.
https://www.f150ecoboost.net/forum/6...l-mileage.html
Prius gets 60 MPG at 60 MPH, 50 at 70 MPH and 40 at 80 MPH, and that is an eight yr old one with 217,000 miles on it.
Prius is heavier than a Corolla and about the same as an Accord, at a little over 3,000 lbs.

Well I *own* a eco boost so not just talking out of my ...

Just did a 350 mile trip across a 6000 foot mountain pass in 7 hours, 23.3mpg

Probably the old trucks with 140hp couldn't go fast enough to cause wind resistance to be an issue. That could be the difference. If you go 80mph in a eco boost you get more like 16mpg. If you could get a 40 year old ford to go 80mph, you would probably get something like 10mpg.