SSB Info - School Me!

[robert sailor]

We have both a SSB as well as a Sat phone. Have never purchased minutes for the Sat phone but I might one day. Because of my personal experience over the years I am very familiar with a SSB and use it for all our email and offshore weather forecasts. Crossing the Atlantic and Pacific I was always able to get through to Sail mail. It's a sailors biggest party line (for those old enough to know what that was) and we love to keep in touch with cruising friends. For a couple of hundred dollars a year we get all the weather and emails we need anywhere. I understand why it's not popular with younger sailors that are used to pushing a button on a phone but If given a choice I'd keep the SSB and dump the Sat phone but fortunately I am able to have both. Even now in the Caribbean it's nice to get up each morning and listen to a real meteorologist giving the weather forecast on SSB and it's all free, how do you beat that?

[MYTraveler]

Originally Posted by Emouchet

An "HF AM license" is needed for any xmit on SSB. No license needed if listenning only !
Check your country of origin for local regulation. Each country is different.

But as pointed out above, there is no test for an SSB license -- just pay a fee.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by MYTraveler

But as pointed out above, there is no test for an SSB license -- just pay a fee.

Really?

Here in Oz we need a license to use the HF radio on marine frequencies, which requires both a theory test for a perpetual operator license and a then a totally separate ship station license for the radio which is renewed annually.

To transmit on other (but not just any) HF frequencies you need an amateur radio operator license (based on theory and practice, then the operator license is renewed annually with a fee), but strangely, not a station license for the radio, which, depending on your license level, can be any old thing capable of transmitting a signal.

The end result of this is a steady trickle of cash going out and a steady exchange of paper certificates in the navigation draw.

[MYTraveler]

Originally Posted by GILow

Really?

Here in Oz we need a license to use the HF radio on marine frequencies, which requires both a theory test for a perpetual operator license and a then a totally separate ship station license for the radio which is renewed annually.

To transmit on other (but not just any) HF frequencies you need an amateur radio operator license (based on theory and practice, then the operator license is renewed annually with a fee), but strangely, not a station license for the radio, which, depending on your license level, can be any old thing capable of transmitting a signal.

The end result of this is a steady trickle of cash going out and a steady exchange of paper certificates in the navigation draw.

Yes, in the US. And there are basically two different licenses -- for SSB the pay-a-fee, no test or knowledge necessary, and for Ham, three levels of licensure / testing (but as I recall, the fee is much lower than the SSB fee). In some circumstances the SSB-type license is technically required even to transmit on VHF.

Like your license scheme, there is no requirement for a station license (but the operator is burdened with making sure that the equipment is compliant), while for SSB you need both a station and an operator license.

[ka4wja]

Pat,
Much of the info (albeit quite heavy in detail) is right here on Cruiser's Forum (in the stickies above)...on YouTube...and in the Sailmail Primer...
And, below I will link to all of those....but first some direct/specific answers for you...

Originally Posted by pstadt

We've not yet purchased an SSB radio for our 44' Orana (2011) but would like to....wide open to suggested makes/models/costs. (Icom M-802, or its replacement...just about the only real affordable choice, see below for details...)

I would particularly like to hear about power (see item #3, below) and antenna installation (see item #4, below) for the system on a catamaran.

Thanks!

pat

1) First off, your choices are controlled by your budget and your desired/needed communications...
(please understand that your "SSB" radio choices are not controlled by the "power" or "antenna", even on a cat...and I will explain in detail later...)
{Please note that we should have some more info, late this week, regarding Icom's M-802 and/or its replacement (rumored to be the M-805)...but, you can still buy the venerable M-802 "for export only" and/or from sources in Canada, Hong Kong, etc...sorry about this fiasco, just a US gov't bureaucratic mess that Icom got around for a decade, but somebody screwed-up on an alarm level specification...
But, most of what I will write here will take into account availability of the M-802 (or M-805)...
And also note that the Icom GMDSS Certified GM-800, like those from Furuno, Thrane, Sailor, JRC, etc. is a 24vdc radio and 2 to 3 times the price!}


2) Secondly, you can equip your cat with a new, excellent-quality, full-fledged, modern Marine MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone ("SSB"), with remote tuner, antenna, and RF Ground/Antenna Ground, etc., for less than $3000.... (typically about $1800 for the radio, new...plus remote antenna tuner, etc.....all-in, about $2700 to $2800, for equipment...but with high demand and little supply, the M-802 is now selling for more!! A lot more!!! I was offered $1500 for my old, spare M-802 just last month...)
M802 HF Marine Transceiver - Features - Icom America

Icom SSB Radio Kits & Components

Icom M802 Digital Marine SSB Radio

Icom IC-M802 Digital Marine SSB Radio

https://www.amazon.com/Icom-M802-Mar.../dp/B00197PXT6


If you choose to buy used/second-hand, you can save 40% to 50%, or more...

And, should you choose an older, non-DSC radio (such as an Icom M-700Pro or M-710), you can save more...typically about $400 to $700 for the radio, plus $300 to $400 for the remote antenna tuner, plus misc assc...
But, please don't make the mistake of thinking you can go cheap and buy some unknown piece of junk off ebay and you'll be fine, just cuz you met one guy who did it and got lucky...



3) All 12vdc marine HF radios ("SSB") use about the same power....drawing approx. 2 amps on receive and up to a max of 30 amps (PEAK) on transmit, requiring adequate wiring usually directly from the main house battery bank....BUT...
But, with "average" transmit current draws of only 10 amps or so, and typical use being transmitting for only one to two minutes out of each hour of use/receiving, actual electrical power used by the Marine HF radio on your cat will be quite low!!
For purposes of determining power needed/used on board, unless you spend all afternoon yacking on the radio (which is typical of many ham radio operators, myself included when I have the time), you can all but ignore the actual power (A/H's per day) used while transmitting (which will typically be less than 1 A/H) and just figure one to two hours of use per day, and about 3 to 4 A/H's per day of power consumed..


4) Without a backstay, cats usually suggest a different approach for HF antennas....but this doesn't mean you have to suffer...

a) First off, I'm not sure if the FP 44' Orana has bronze thru hulls??? (unlike my current boat's Marelon)....nor where your bronze thru-hulls for engine intake, etc., might be located???
So, I cannot be too specific here...yet!

--- But, if you do have a bronze thru-hull (or two) that you can access, you can use some 2" to 3" wide copper strap from your remote antenna tuner to the thru-hull, attach properly/securely (and use some waterproof conductive grease, like Penatrox-A, if possible), and your RF Ground / Antenna Ground (sometimes called a "counterpoise"), is done!!! And, it will work great and last decade, with no issues!!!

--- If no bronze thru-hulls, you can spend the $$$ of external ground plate (aka Dynaplate), and it will work great!!
Or you can use toe rails, rub rails, pushpits, stacnchions/lifelines, etc. as your Antenna ground / RF Ground...and it will work good...
You can also add your own counterpoise (aka "radials") in the bilge, or under the deck, etc...for less than $5 investment!! (and this will also work good....and be a lot better than the "KISS Ground", costing $150!!)


b) As for the "antenna" itself....you basically have 3 options...(in ascending order of costs)
1- Rope Antenna....which is simply a 30' to 60' length of insulated copper wire, thread into a length of double-braided line (5/16" or 3/8" is fine...even 1/4" is good), and run from the mast top (or near the mast top) down to the deck (or coach roof, or toerail, or arch, etc.), pulled fairly tight but not used as a piece of standing rigging...
(and, I recommend using a length of GTO-15 copper wire from the bottom end of this copper wire down thru the deck, etc., and directly to the remote antenna tuner...)
The entire copper wire (GTO-15 and what's inside the rope) IS your antenna....and it will be an excellent antenna!!
Depending on your exact application, where you are sailing, where/when you desire communications with, etc., would effect my recommendation of the "proper" length of the wire....but in general, with a 63' tall mast you have the ability to design an antenna that will suit all your needs, for a very low cost!!
(use a 38' to 40' length of wire inside the rope with 3' to 8' of GTO-15 wire, and you'll be good, especially for 6mhz thru 14mhz....if you desire to optimize for the lower freq bands, as I do, you can use a longer length of wire in the rope, and not lose much on the higher bands, but most find this unnecessary...)
Total cost of this antenna is just the cost of the rope and wire...if you scrounge much of the wire, and/or just buy a short piece of GTO-15, and have the rope laying around, the cost is a few dollars! (less than a dinner)


2- Whip Antenna...the typical 23' fiberglass whip, mounted on the stern...
This is a good antenna, but because of its short length (compared to backstay antennas, or rope antennas) it is sometimes a compromise antenna....
Cats with whips typically have weaker transmit signals on the lower bands...4mhz, 6mhz, 8mhz...than boats with longer antennas...but this can also be due to lack of adequate antenna ground / rf ground (also known as a "counterpoise") in many of these installations...but, fact is the shorter the antenna, the less efficient it is on these lower frequency bands, and with much of the cruising community using these lower bands (and with the solar cycle on its multi-year-long downturn, where the higher bands will be less capable), these lower bands will be of great importance...

Total cost of this whip antenna (such as the Shakespeare 390) is a couple hundred dollars, plus the cost of the GTO-15 wire to feed from remote tuner to the whip...
{note there are 28' and 35' whip antennas, but these are rather pricey....and usually seen only on mega-yachts...}


3- Insulated shroud / stay Antenna...
This is an excellent antenna, and will perform the same as the "rope" antenna....but unless you just don't have the room for the rope antenna, the cost / complexity of insulating your shroud / side stay is typicaly too high, and this option falls to the way side...(but I have seen some do it, and it does work well...)



5) I think I answered all your specific questions....so, now onto the fun stuff....how/where to figure all of this out!!

If you have good internet access, or will be somewhere where you will have good internet access (and/or you can spend an hour or two downloading/saving some videos), PLEASE watch these videos!!!
They are all FREE, and NO ads!!

They will show you real, live, honest radio info and use....nothing is being sold, and no agenda is being touted...
Just LIVE, real-world, explanation, use, and demonstration of HF Marine Radio ("SSB") on a real, ocean-cruising 47' sloop....no simulations, no laboratory demonstrations, no actors, no script, etc....just honest, real-world stuff!! (so, please be kind towards the repetition and a couple abrupt edits...


Maritime HF Communications (a playlist that takes you thru the whole thing, except for weather...)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


Offshore Weather (live, real-world use of radios to access timely and accurate weather info/forecasts, when offshore and/or in remote locales)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY


HF-DSC Communications (deals with HF-DSC comms, in detail)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX



If you desire more...
VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF


Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY


Icom M-802 Specific Instruction videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr



And, if you enjoy reading....have a look at these threads/stickies...

Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html
(here you'll find links / references to just about all the "SSB" info you'd ever need)

Sailmail Primer
https://sailmail.com/wp-content/uplo...2/smprimer.htm
(more details about installation, adjustments, rfi, etc.)


DSC (Digital Selective Calling) Explanation
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-169164.html



There is certainly more to all of this....but don't want to overwhelm ya!


Some pics that show the radios, etc....









If you can provide us with some details on your exact application, I'm sure we can provide you with some more / detailed info as well...

But, until then, I hope the above helps...

Fair winds..

John

[toddster8]

Re: Costs. I was able to get a complete M802 system for about $1000, by being patient and watching eBay. It took about a year.
The M802 itself was a take-out from a hurricane boat, so all the cables were cut. Even when there was a connector six inches away! A bit of a gamble, but it seems to work fine. Low serial number though, so minus the last couple of firmware upgrades.

[toddster8]

Hey, that reminds me... does anybody happen to have the exact depth required for a panel-mounted DR-7400 or DR-7800 Pactor modem, including all cables?
This weeks boat project is re-configuring some nav station panels. (My brain just can't handle having the radar screen at 90° to the heading any more.) I want to leave room for future expansion.

[ka4wja]

Todd,
Kinda off topic....but..
The exact dimensions are in the SCS manuals (and on their website)....
But...if you can't find 'em there, here they are...

The DR-7800 is about 8" deep (205mm) and the DR-7400 is about 5.4" deep (138mm)....

Originally Posted by toddster8

does anybody happen to have the exact depth required for a panel-mounted DR-7400 or DR-7800 Pactor modem, including all cables?

I want to leave room for future expansion.

But, as for cables.....I'd allow 1.5" to 2" just to keep them from being "pinched"....and if desired, another inch to inch and a half to plug and unplug...

So, figure about 9.5" to 11.5" depth access for the DR-7800 and 7" to 9" for the DR-7400...overall...


Hope this helps..

John

[robert sailor]

For a standard Pactor 3 you need approximately 9-1/4" in total depth and that allows for the rear plugs. You could shrink that a little if you had 90 degree plugs on the rear.

[pstadt]

Thanks to all above for the great info! We cruise full time now and are reaching the physical limits of getting weather from internet connections, thus the desire for an SSB system and the original post.

Since we are on a cat, we don't have a backstay, which I believe is the typical support spot for the HF antenna...anyone on a cat out there with an SSB that can share your install? Pics would be great if you have them.

Roger on the comments about SATCOM vs. SSB systems - I appreciate the alternate point of view for recommended systems. If we were just doing short term deliveries, SATCOM would be my choice....still, e-systems are constantly improving and evolving, so I will continue to research before buying.

Cheers,

Pat

[pstadt]

Just saw John's post above with the detailed info and pics, so I think I've got all I need for now - thanks again John! And thanks to all the other posters - good info!

Pat

[ka4wja]

Pat,
If you look at what I wrote this afternoon (post #35, above), and the links provided there, you'll find most of the answers you seek...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2326114

I detailed the antenna options there, along with their respective advantages and costs...
(sorry I sail a monohull and don't have pics of a cat with a rope antenna, whip antenna, or insulated shroud/stay....but, you can easily google these and see for yourself, yes???)

Originally Posted by pstadt

Thanks to all above for the great info! We cruise full time now and are reaching the physical limits of getting weather from internet connections, thus the desire for an SSB system and the original post.

Since we are on a cat, we don't have a backstay, which I believe is the typical support spot for the HF antenna...anyone on a cat out there with an SSB that can share your install? Pics would be great if you have them.

Roger on the comments about SATCOM vs. SSB systems - I appreciate the alternate point of view for recommended systems. If we were just doing short term deliveries, SATCOM would be my choice....still, e-systems are constantly improving and evolving, so I will continue to research before buying.

Cheers,

Pat

I see that you now mention weather info/forecasts, so I'm going to assume this is a primary application of yours (like it is for most of us), and as such will again direct you to watch the videos and read some of the links in the stickies referenced...

Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY


Offshore Weather info at sea / in remote locales
Offshore / Hi-Seas Weather data / forecasts


Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html



Other than photos of catamarans HF antenna installs, are there some specific things that you are interested in, that I've omitted??

Here's just part of what I wrote earlier:

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Pat,
Much of the info (albeit quite heavy in detail) is right here on Cruiser's Forum (in the stickies above)...on YouTube...and in the Sailmail Primer...
And, below I will link to all of those....but first some direct/specific answers for you...



4) Without a backstay, cats usually suggest a different approach for HF antennas....but this doesn't mean you have to suffer...

a) First off, I'm not sure if the FP 44' Orana has bronze thru hulls??? (unlike my current boat's Marelon)....nor where your bronze thru-hulls for engine intake, etc., might be located???
So, I cannot be too specific here...yet!

--- But, if you do have a bronze thru-hull (or two) that you can access, you can use some 2" to 3" wide copper strap from your remote antenna tuner to the thru-hull, attach properly/securely (and use some waterproof conductive grease, like Penatrox-A, if possible), and your RF Ground / Antenna Ground (sometimes called a "counterpoise"), is done!!! And, it will work great and last decade, with no issues!!!

--- If no bronze thru-hulls, you can spend the $$$ of external ground plate (aka Dynaplate), and it will work great!!
Or you can use toe rails, rub rails, pushpits, stacnchions/lifelines, etc. as your Antenna ground / RF Ground...and it will work good...
You can also add your own counterpoise (aka "radials") in the bilge, or under the deck, etc...for less than $5 investment!! (and this will also work good....and be a lot better than the "KISS Ground", costing $150!!)


b) As for the "antenna" itself....you basically have 3 options...(in ascending order of costs)
1- Rope Antenna....which is simply a 30' to 60' length of insulated copper wire, thread into a length of double-braided line (5/16" or 3/8" is fine...even 1/4" is good), and run from the mast top (or near the mast top) down to the deck (or coach roof, or toerail, or arch, etc.), pulled fairly tight but not used as a piece of standing rigging...
(and, I recommend using a length of GTO-15 copper wire from the bottom end of this copper wire down thru the deck, etc., and directly to the remote antenna tuner...)
The entire copper wire (GTO-15 and what's inside the rope) IS your antenna....and it will be an excellent antenna!!
Depending on your exact application, where you are sailing, where/when you desire communications with, etc., would effect my recommendation of the "proper" length of the wire....but in general, with a 63' tall mast you have the ability to design an antenna that will suit all your needs, for a very low cost!!
(use a 38' to 40' length of wire inside the rope with 3' to 8' of GTO-15 wire, and you'll be good, especially for 6mhz thru 14mhz....if you desire to optimize for the lower freq bands, as I do, you can use a longer length of wire in the rope, and not lose much on the higher bands, but most find this unnecessary...)
Total cost of this antenna is just the cost of the rope and wire...if you scrounge much of the wire, and/or just buy a short piece of GTO-15, and have the rope laying around, the cost is a few dollars! (less than a dinner)


2- Whip Antenna...the typical 23' fiberglass whip, mounted on the stern...
This is a good antenna, but because of its short length (compared to backstay antennas, or rope antennas) it is sometimes a compromise antenna....
Cats with whips typically have weaker transmit signals on the lower bands...4mhz, 6mhz, 8mhz...than boats with longer antennas...but this can also be due to lack of adequate antenna ground / rf ground (also known as a "counterpoise") in many of these installations...but, fact is the shorter the antenna, the less efficient it is on these lower frequency bands, and with much of the cruising community using these lower bands (and with the solar cycle on its multi-year-long downturn, where the higher bands will be less capable), these lower bands will be of great importance...

Total cost of this whip antenna (such as the Shakespeare 390) is a couple hundred dollars, plus the cost of the GTO-15 wire to feed from remote tuner to the whip...
{note there are 28' and 35' whip antennas, but these are rather pricey....and usually seen only on mega-yachts...}


3- Insulated shroud / stay Antenna...
This is an excellent antenna, and will perform the same as the "rope" antenna....but unless you just don't have the room for the rope antenna, the cost / complexity of insulating your shroud / side stay is typicaly too high, and this option falls to the way side...(but I have seen some do it, and it does work well...)



5) I think I answered all your specific questions....so, now onto the fun stuff....how/where to figure all of this out!!

If you have good internet access, or will be somewhere where you will have good internet access (and/or you can spend an hour or two downloading/saving some videos), PLEASE watch these videos!!!
They are all FREE, and NO ads!!

They will show you real, live, honest radio info and use....nothing is being sold, and no agenda is being touted...
Just LIVE, real-world, explanation, use, and demonstration of HF Marine Radio ("SSB") on a real, ocean-cruising 47' sloop....no simulations, no laboratory demonstrations, no actors, no script, etc....just honest, real-world stuff!! (so, please be kind towards the repetition and a couple abrupt edits...


Maritime HF Communications (a playlist that takes you thru the whole thing, except for weather...)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


Offshore Weather (live, real-world use of radios to access timely and accurate weather info/forecasts, when offshore and/or in remote locales)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2mPZAx2vWzdjTJjHlChruyY


HF-DSC Communications (deals with HF-DSC comms, in detail)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2n3z5nlv-ga2zYuPozhUXZX



If you desire more...
VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2m-IejYg7J6QugtO2epizxF


Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nbwAGh5DKgTCj15iyl6qoY


Icom M-802 Specific Instruction videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2npivDjoFrC-8QKVyMb4tVr



And, if you enjoy reading....have a look at these threads/stickies...

Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-ssb-stuff-how-to-better-use-proeprly-install-ssb-and-troubleshoot-rfi-etc-133496.html
(here you'll find links / references to just about all the "SSB" info you'd ever need)

Sailmail Primer
https://sailmail.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/smprimer.htm
(more details about installation, adjustments, rfi, etc.)


DSC (Digital Selective Calling) Explanation
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/dsc-digital-selective-calling-explanation-169164.html



There is certainly more to all of this....but don't want to overwhelm ya!


Some pics that show the radios, etc....








If you can provide us with some details on your exact application, I'm sure we can provide you with some more / detailed info as well...

But, until then, I hope the above helps...

Fair winds..

John

Hope this helps....

John

[GILow]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

b) As for the "antenna" itself....you basically have 3 options...(in ascending order of costs)
1- Rope Antenna....

John,

Thank you for reminding me of this option. We have an insulated backstay antenna, but I had forgotten that I wanted to play around with other options, including "emergency" setups, a bit like this. It has occurred to me that having the HF is all very well for emergencies, but given a dismasting is possibility it would ironic if we could not use the HF to call for help, or as one other CF member has done, just call to let people know they are ok just likely to be delayed in their arrival after the mast fell down.

Matt

[ka4wja]

Matt, et al,
Regarding "emergency HF antennas", I have a 25' length of GTO-15, a 45' length of 14ga copper, some misc pieces of 5/16" line, etc., and an old MFJ manual tuner, a few coax jumpers, etc., in a bag ready to go....and along with a couple of fiberglass fishing poles, etc. I'm ready for what comes...no matter what antenna I desire.

Originally Posted by GILow

John,

Thank you for reminding me of this option. We have an insulated backstay antenna, but I had forgotten that I wanted to play around with other options, including "emergency" setups, a bit like this. It has occurred to me that having the HF is all very well for emergencies, but given a dismasting is possibility it would ironic if we could not use the HF to call for help, or as one other CF member has done, just call to let people know they are ok just likely to be delayed in their arrival after the mast fell down.

Matt

FYI, it depends on where you are at when the dismasting occurs, and if anything else is damaged in the process....but understand that with MF/HF-DSC you can signal distress on multiple freqs in the matter of minutes and all MF/HF-DSC equipped SOLAS vessels within range of you (as well as potentially > 80 HF-DSC coasts stations and/or potentially > 450 MF-DSC coast stations) will receive your DSC Distress call...so, again, depending on WHERE you are at (and how far away merchant shipping is as well as coast stations), using an antenna that would maximize the communications potential is a good idea....
So, if looking at 100 to 500 mile range, daytime NVIS comms primarily on 4mhz and 8mhz (as well as on 2mhz or 6mhz), means you might be better off with a horizontal wire strung up fore-to-aft as high as you can manage, rather than a vertical antenna!! But, for longer ranges, a vertical antenna for 8mhz, and certainly for 12mhz and 16mhz, would be called for...

My point is that HF comms, especially in non-standard situations, might require some knowledge / expertise to make things work optimally
Just like anchoring, sail trim, navigation, diesel maintenance, etc.., when out at sea, you are on your own and you should know these things!


Fair winds...

John