Is it right and fair to live aboard a vessel that cannot navigate?

[john61ct]

Thanks, but quite intimate with both topics for many decades now, was an urban planning geek and greenie long before the first Earth Day

[OS2Dude]

Originally Posted by Chotu

If they are paying for a dock or a mooring, they are equal to you in every way.

... if they are paying their fair share at the marina for a mooring or Dock, they are just equal to the rest of the boaters.

I disagree, depending on how they maintain what they have. There are several boats in the various marinas around here that are in terrible shape, basically left to rot at the dock. But their slips fees are still being paid. A few have live-aboards that look like the Wanderer at the beginning of Captain Ron. One I spoke with says it takes him two days to clear the crap off his boat in order to leave the slip, so he rarely ever moves it. Another has a window unit cut into the side of the cabin and plastic milk crates filled with propane tanks and other junk all over the deck. It is used as a cheap hotel room when the owner is in town on business and it never leaves.

We spend a lot of time and effort (Not to mention $$$) to keep our vessel looking good and well maintained. I don't think we should be expected to live in a ghetto of old derelicts and trashy boats just because someone continues to pay the fees. (Yes, we have moved twice now because of this issue)

[john61ct]

That is all up to the marina, if not covered by local regs.

Moving on to one with higher standards is indeed the right solution.

By the way, do you really still use OS/2 systems?

[mvmojo]

Originally Posted by mvmojo

I managed a live-aboard legal marina in the Keys for 10 years. Non-navigable vessels with indigent owners (many with drug or alcohol issues) are a real problem down there. The marina had a rule that all boats must be navigable under their own power. They could not enter the marina unless they came in under their own power - could not be towed or rowed in, no makeshift motors just to get in the marina, etc. A five member board had the absolute discretion as to deciding whether the vessel was navigable or not. And, if the boat came in under it's own power and then deteriorated over the years in it's slip, the board had the authority to demand the boat either demonstrate it's navigability or get towed out the marina. By making it known up front that a vessel had to be navigable to stay in the marina, it headed off most potential problems. It's been a while, but I don't recall ever having to force a vessel to leave due to lack of navigability. We threw several out because the owners were problems, but not because the boat wouldn't move.

EDIT: I just remembered, we did have to require one boat to leave the marina. It was in a relatively shallow slip and several times the boat took on enough water to be sitting in the mud. The owner would pump it to refloat, but the process was repeated time and time again. The final straw was when we saw fuel in the water around the boat. We told the vessel owner he had to get out of the marina, that his boat was not navigable, was a "sinker" and was a fuel spill risk. His choice was to tow the boat away or get a visit from the USCG for a fuel spill. He chose to leave.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by boatman61

My experience of Amsterdam and other cities in the Nederlands is the majority of these boats you allege block the view rarely are above street level.. you have to go down steps to board them.

In Europe we call this Picturesque..

Boatie- none of these boats are I the condition of the canal boats of Paris, London, Amsterdam, etc.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Snore

Boatie- none of these boats are I the condition of the canal boats of Paris, London, Amsterdam, etc.

You are correct but I believe the point of the photos was not to illustrate the condition but rather to illustrate that they are not blocking the view due to their being below street level.

[OS2Dude]

Originally Posted by oksana

ugh, yet another 'i don't want no ugly liveaboard boats in my sight line' rant....

Ugh, yet another liveaboard with a chip on their shoulder reply...

No, I don't think even YOU want to live next to a junkyard, floating or not. However, if you'd bother to actually READ the post, I also object to the boats that for all intents and purposes have been abandoned. Shredded sails and covers, broken rigging, actual rotting decks, hulls so black or green you can't actually make out the hull color, etc. (I saw one once that actually had a tree growing in the leaf litter in the cockpit.) You can't leave a house go to pot with impunity, why do you think boats should be able to?

I actually LIKE to have a few live-aboards around as long as their vessel is kept neat and tidy. I don't care if there is an engine or not, or even if they have sails or not.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Snore

Boatie- none of these boats are I the condition of the canal boats of Paris, London, Amsterdam, etc.

Snore, I have strolled the streets of Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Eindhoven, the banks of the Thames.. yes theirs bad examples but mainly they are well maintained with gardens on roofs etc.. None block views though some may tower above street level by a foot or two.
The Seine I cant speak for, its in a country I spend as little time as possible.. usually escorted in by their bored Coastguard for a lets piss off a Brit inspection.

https://youtu.be/6dMD7SPZpSQ

https://youtu.be/xemaVx_Ank8

[boatman61]

https://youtu.be/xemaVx_Ank8
Canal boats in the middle of London.

[Jammer]

Thank you all for the replies. The thread has gone off in some interesting directions.

One of the things that led me to start the thread was coming across advertisements for this boat, which is for sale locally (see photo). There's a comprehensive listing here with 20 photos. (Link may require registration, try the boattrader listing instead) The boat was built to a 90% state of completion in 2012 and has been sitting in the harbor ever since, the out-of-state owner having lost interest or perhaps run out of money.

This "boat" is of residential construction. It is built on 50'x14' barge with twin gasoline-fueled 140hp stern drives. Other than the engines, the for-sale listing indicates nothing of any provisions for navigation -- there's no anchor, no photo of the helm station, no navigation lights, no VHF antenna, etc. The little porch with the white columns is the stern -- you can see the drives underneath the retractable step. The forward visibility is exceptionally poor -- you'd need a helmsman and two lookouts to move it. It's on a section of river bounded by locks. You'd hit the roof overhang on the lock walls unless you had 24" diameter fenders. Even then I don't know where you would put line handlers. If it were my job to move it down the river, I'd put someone I trust in an a chase boat to help.

[Shenandoah52]

There were similar houseboats in the marina I was in years ago and they moved one of the houseboats out of the marina and up the channel to a new location. When Tugboat Mary was trying to tow the houseboat she had a line connected to each corner of her end of the houseboat in bridle fashion connected to the bollard on her little tug boat.

It was comical. She was one of the best skippers in LA Harbor but the houseboat had no bow, just the flat face of the barge pushing through the water. So time and time again as soon as she would gain a little speed one of the corners would act as the bow rotating the barge and driving it towards the boats on either side of the channel between the two marinas. First toward the port side, then back toward the starboard side, on and on it went. It took her forever.

For those familiar with that area I'm talking about what became The Chowder Barge.

[bumpman]

A surprisingly interesting thread with so many comments covering ethical, financial, marine, aesthetic, and environmental dimensions. Welcome to the "new" world we live in - lots to think about. Here in Port Townsend WA, there are plenty of boats whose owners use most of their SS checks for moorage fees and whose "vessels" are not only eye-sores but also environmental hazards. Then what happens after the next great recession or depression? What's already happening on shore in cities may soon be happening (it already has in many harbors) in all of our coastal waters. On the other side of the coin there are many new and innovative ways for living on the water that can address coastal sea level rise and even coastal storm impacts. It looks like there'll be lots of new "waters" that we citizens will have to not only contend with but also become active in as democratic voices.

[barnakiel]

Exactly. Nobody forced you to anchor in the trash corner of the bay.

You have $$$, you dock your ship in a posh marina and your problem is solved!


Just make sure your $$$ is not an argument to drive the trash corner sailors OUT.


Because them, unlike you lucky duck, possibly do not have the $$$ borrowed by white middle aged people.


No, I did not say, owned, no typo there.



Cheers,
b.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Exactly. Nobody forced you to anchor in the trash corner of the bay.

You have $$$, you dock your ship in a posh marina and your problem is solved!


Just make sure your $$$ is not an argument to drive the trash corner sailors OUT.


Because them, unlike you lucky duck, possibly do not have the $$$ borrowed by white middle aged people.


No, I did not say, owned, no typo there.



Cheers,
b.

Please spare us the sanctimonious self-righteous crap (and I'm considered a bleeding heart by most). Some of us came from lower middle class backgrounds and worked our behinds off, doing some good in the world while we were at it, to achieve a moderate level of success. No "luck" about it, in fact it involved a lot of unlucky breaks but going back at it over and over, while others did not. And some of us do far more than the most sanctimonious among us to provide opportunity for those who are on the wrong side of luck to the point they aren't in a position to dig themselves out, you have absolutely no idea. And as a result you have no right to stereotype successful folks like you have or determine that success wasn't earned or that it isn't being used to do more good in the world than you on your high horse. And yeah, I have the right to keep derelict boats off the water just like you have the right to keep derelict cars off the street in front of your house and most certainly would if someone made house there.

[dwedeking2]

But we are not talking about derelict boats (abandoned or sunk boats) the OP is talking about boats without the means of propulsion either by failure or design.

My take (with the above criteria)

Private owned marina - none of your damn business on anything. The transaction is between the business owner and the boat owner.

Public Marina/mooring fields - the criteria for use type and length should be explained in detail in the charter as decided by the community for use of public resources.

Anchorages not controlled by a local community. First come/first serve. Unless there is proven harm (pollutants in the water/boat is sunk) then mind your own business.

Local communities that have limited resources (san diego/NYC for example) should address allocation of resources to legally control those resources to their criteria.

It is impossible to say if "Action A" is correct in all situations as scarcity of those resources is different.

In Key West there are tons of houseboats and houses on barges in the city marina at garrison bight and it's a non issue. There are a few anchored out and room for lots more.

Human waste. Key West has a simple solution. They provide free pumpouts to those on anchor. I don't know the actual costs but it should be less than $100k per year. My interactions with the system prior moving to the mooring field was that there were 3 part time employees and one small center console to maintain. Compare this with $2.9million to add more lights to pedestrian crossing project and it's reasonable and proper use of public funds (imo).

Not everyone that is a liveaboard is homeless. I enjoy living on the water. One of the reasons was to get away from over-controlling busy bodies ("these are the acceptable house colors", "this is the acceptable length for your lawn").