Is it right and fair to live aboard a vessel that cannot navigate?

[dennismenace111]

Originally Posted by StuM

Shirley, you jest?

Dont call me Shirley

[StoneCrab]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

Not everyone that is a liveaboard is homeless. I enjoy living on the water. One of the reasons was to get away from over-controlling busy bodies ("these are the acceptable house colors", "this is the acceptable length for your lawn").

Hilarious and well put!

I feel a relief every time I step over the seawall.

[Shenandoah52]

Just watched this short video and I have a feeling this is the type of situation many people on here are talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V4-kOrE0ds

[CatNewBee]

There are communities with stationary houses built on pontoons or old vessels, tied up to a dock, they never move or need to be towed to move. In San Francisco is such a community, there are more on inland waterways. Some are real fancy and expensive.

On the other hand, there are campgrounds that allow full timers to set up and build stufc around their not longer movable trailer, they have a fixed roof above, a veranda, a garden, enclosures around the veranda as second room, you barely see the original trailer.

As long as they pay their fees, they are welcome, it pays for the off-season. There are trailer parks and tiny houses, that are not navigable any more on the streets.

It is good to have room for alternative live styles between brick and mortar homes, rented flats and sleeping undet a bridge or on a park bench.

As long as you pay your dues and play to the rules you should be left alone to choose how you want to live.

[tomfl]

There have been a couple of posts in this thread about what historical urban planning has done in terms of housing and transportation.

In a different life after I got my advanced degrees in urban and regional planning and a law degree in a joint program offered by FSU I worked in that area before I retired.

One planning term I have not seen used so far is 'carrying capacity'. Basically this means limited resources limit things. In the simplest terms a marina that has 100 slips is limited to 100 boats. The same is true for live aboard boats; there can only be so many of them.

It is not simply a space issue. Every marina I have been in has at one time or another had some type of fuel leak. Maybe it was just a few splashes as the outboard on an inflatable was being filled, not releasing the pump handle quick enough at the fuel dock, or what ever. But these spills were never enough to exceed the carrying capacity. Same thing for dumping instead of using the pump out boat; at some point if enough boats do it the carrying capacity is exceeded.

The point I am trying to make is the number of live aboards in some places is exceeding the carrying capacity. In most cases these places are in or close to cities; I have always been able to find a nice open anchorages. In fact that is what I look for and often am the only boat in the anchorage.

Which brings me to the second point. In addition to a carrying capacity issue there is also the law of supply and demand. In many areas of South Florida (and from my reading other places as well) there is simply not enough marina space, mooring balls, or anchorages close to cities. The result is prices are increased and many low end live aboards are simply priced out of the market.

Some post here have talked about 'pie in the sky by and by' solutions like affordable housing, good jobs, and social justice. Problem is this is not happening and it is not realistic to think it will.

One illustrative story comes to mind. I left BKH just before Irma hit. While numbers vary some say 1,700 boats in the area were lost; and many of them were what I will call non moveable live aboards. Fast forward to today and BKH is again over run with non movable live aboards (or in some cases non movable boats with no one living aboard). A quick glance at the BKH facebook page will turn up multiple gripes about these boats dragging anchor while the owner is away.

Bottom line is carrying capacity and the law of supply and demand will at some point limit none movable live aboards.

[Chotu]

Great post, Tom. So a lot of our gripes pertain largely to urban areas.

Solution? Get out to where life is nicer and the carrying capacity increases.

Interesting.

[john61ct]

Fine and good, until you are looking for work with decent wages, but even those still don't cover local housing costs.

I do think for locations without closer enforcement of "sound boat enforcement"

requiring ability to navigate is a reasonable preventative measure against sinking/abandonment, solve the problem earlier rather than waiting for it to be too late.

Or prior posting a bond greater than recovery/disposal costs.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Fine and good, until you are looking for work with decent wages, but even those still don't cover local housing costs.

I do think for locations without closer enforcement of "sound boat enforcement"

requiring ability to navigate is a reasonable preventative measure against sinking/abandonment, solve the problem earlier rather than waiting for it to be too late.

Or prior posting a bond greater than recovery/disposal costs.

As a rule single family housing is an asset that increases in value while a boat is an asset that decreases in value. Not to mention that the term 'boat bucks' is one that boat owners should know well.

If your income does not cover local housing costs for an asset that is increasing in value it is not likely it will cover upkeep for an asset that is decreasing in value.

While I understand the SJW housing issues I am not convinced living on a boat is the answer.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by tomfl

As a rule single family housing is an asset that increases in value while a boat is an asset that decreases in value. Not to mention that the term 'boat bucks' is one that boat owners should know well.

If your income does not cover local housing costs for an asset that is increasing in value it is not likely it will cover upkeep for an asset that is decreasing in value.

While I understand the SJW housing issues I am not convinced living on a boat is the answer.

There are floating homes. I don't call them boats, because they are just pontoons, no engine, tied up to shore in a river or lake. They are expensive as a house is, but thete is no garden nor area ground around that makes housing expensive, they just pay a small docking fee and for energy and water supply from tbe dock. They are built and meant to stay there, they can be towed, but the dock place is rented for 99years. Just alternative living in a luxury home at the lake or river in nature in a community of like-minded people.

Same in the US

https://www.bayarea.com/play/houseboat-living-bay-area/

[Secondshift]

These issues are always so hotly debated.
There seems to be no solidarity.

All groups seemingly wanting what's best for themselves.

Fl is currently debating HOW a vessel shall prove herself mobile. Not if but how.

Under recent threat of Dorian. My fully operational vessel had to ride it out due to a
height restriced bridge on the Okeechobee Waterway ( 49' ) owing to my oversight. To have had her tipped would not allow time to transit. While a livaboard with no engine breast towed his boat to a safe spot already full when I checked.

A vessels apperarence is no good judgement for ability.

I would happily have seen some of the real eyesores gone but the only boat that ever dragged was a beautiful 30' . Nearby enough for me to appear on deck with fenders before losing hold again and pinning herself to to someones dock.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

On the other hand, there are campgrounds that allow full timers to set up and build stufc around their not longer movable trailer, they have a fixed roof above, a veranda, a garden, enclosures around the veranda as second room, you barely see the original trailer.

As long as they pay their fees, they are welcome, it pays for the off-season. There are trailer parks and tiny houses, that are not navigable any more on the streets.

Actually, campers face similar issues.

In the good old days, they may have flown under the radar but at the campground where we keep our 5th wheel most of the summer, the local building inspector comes out a couple times a year...result, the owner no longer allows building permanent structures around an RV because then it needs to meet code and if they leave, someone has to dismantle and remove the structure. It's just too complicated and conflicts with zoning rules.

This is different from mobile home parks where they expect a semi-permanent installation.

[barnakiel]

Yes. True. Some moorings are ... ;-)))) ... 'fun to watch'.


But we do not evict whole class of people because one, or few, of their class are 'bad apples'.


Or do we?


barnakiel

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Secondshift

(...)


There seems to be no solidarity.


...



All groups seemingly wanting what's best for themselves.


(...)

You are 100% correct in your judgement. This is so in some places. But it does not have to be so.


I grew up in on of those places where 'solidarity' was a big important concept. There it mean 'let others help us out!'. Well. Fast forward 30 years and that country is still at the stage where solidarity is some mystic others helping poor us. It is, in fact, a vicious circle and such definitions, such thinking, arrest our social, moral and otherwise development.


Rewind back 10 years. We are in French Polynesia living in a small, 'unfair and unright' community of mostly French live-aboards, in a bay just E of Papeete harbour (Tahiti). We are watching a movie 'En Solitaire' and the concept of solidarity pops up. To my surprise, here the concept means totally THE OPPOSITE of what it means in Eastern Europe! Here, in France, solidarity means 'giving to others, sharing with others'.


In French Polynesia nobody pestered riff raff cruisers living in their funky craft. What a coincidence! Or really?



As you said, in many societies solidarity is within our own group only. This is why our societies are so week and our political leaders do as they please. They too are solididaire - with other politicians.


Liveaboards are solidaire with liveboards, and sailors with other sailors. There is also some good will and understanding between these two groups. After all, if you are a sailor today, you may end up living aboard tomorrow.


But owners of white plastick boats mass docked in marinas (who happen to be 99% of all pleasure craft owners today) - what do they have in common with sailors or liveaboards? Nothing. And thus they will never accept it that other people have other means, goals and lifestyles. Owners of mass produced morgaged white grp boats will be solidaire - with other owners of evenly docked boats with bright colorful fender socks. And that's that.


It does not have to be this way. But you cannot convert whole nations from one vision of solidarity to another. Cultures developed over ages and language forms our thinking and attitudes.


blah blah blah end of my weekend rant ;-)


Cheers,
b.

[barnakiel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmx4rUseiUM

Good read for our troubled age.


https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2165236/



Probably available from your local library.



barnakiel

[oldcal46skipper]

Very interesting read. Thanks to the OP.



IMHO, if a well maintained vessel that does not dump human waste in the water and has arrangements to be moved before the storm arrives is ok.
Regardless these folks rarely pay their share of public safety costs as I a waterfront property owner pays, $3,400 each year. I respect their freedom as long as they pay their share.


When bona fide "Cruisers" come into our bayou and anchor, my wife and I go out to welcome them with flowers, wine or beer and offer to allow them to use our dinghy dock in front of our home and take them grocery shopping, etc.


It is the dirt bags who anchor their boats so as to impede navigation, allow them to sink or pollute. I report them to the authorities. The boat pictured anchored and tied up to a tree in the public park across the bayou over 6 months ago, The USCG came and arrested the person on board the stolen boat. Now it is still on it's side impeding navigation as well as an eyesore.


We have notified authorities as well as our elected representatives and received "promises". We have 4 other partially sunk or derelict vessels in our small bayou plus several more blocking navigation and polluting!


What to do? I am aware of the inscription on our Statue of Liberty.