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Old 22-02-2017, 11:20   #16
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
It doesn't matter 'why not'. That would be like asking why a ferrari can't be used offroad, when a Hummer can. After all, they are both 4 wheeled conveyance vehicles.

The question should be "Which moisture detectors are used by surveyors on fiberglass hulls?"
My only transportation for a while was my 2008 Prius.
I like to mountain bike and getting to some trails meant driving on not-so-well-maintained dirt roads.
I never asked if my Prius could tote 3 mountain bikes and riders over gravel, loose dirt, and through potholes... I just figured it has 4 wheels so... why not?
.

lol
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It's much better now that I'm equipped with a 4x4 pickup again
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Old 22-02-2017, 11:22   #17
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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This one claims to work with GRP/Plastics but its not cheap..
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tramex-SMP-.../dp/B005FPKSNY
Thanks!
Couldn't tell, though, if that's in Pesos or not?
Pesos I can afford!
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Old 22-02-2017, 11:25   #18
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
When in doubt, learn who the trustworthy contributors are on this and other boating forums.

Maine Sail is one of the go-to folks. Calder's book are another.

If I had a penny for every electrical system question or incorrect reply on boating forums , I wouldn't be sitting here helping out, I'd be on a 57 foot yacht cruising the South Pacific. Since I'm not , I put this together,, many excerpts I have used to answer individual questions. It includes many links to posts Maine Sail has made on other forums than his own website.

Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101

That's how I learned. Books, internet, "trust but verify."
Thanks!
I started out in my quest, and finding this forum, just reading a lot and yep... saw Mainsail referenced quite a lot as a reliable source for information.
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Old 22-02-2017, 11:30   #19
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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And starting it out with worrying about moisture meters is not a good sign.
To clarify... I didn't start out with moisture meters.... that was but one small facet of this whole journey so far with me!
.
My main muddled point for this particular thread was supposed to be about the basic issue of determining what information was worthy of taking at face value and which information begs for more inquisition.
.
Unfortunately (although with the provided info and links... it's also fortunately), this thread is dominated by the issue of moisture meters.
I ran a search earlier and found several other threads on moisture meters that I will be reading amongst all the other links pertaining to the myriad of questions I have surrounding buying my first sailboat!
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Old 22-02-2017, 11:36   #20
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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I disagree. Your comparison is not apples to apples. I can look at a Ferrari and a pile of rocks and know why it doesn't work offroad. I can't look at a moisture sensor and know why it works on one material and not another. And I want to know WHY. Knowing why will help me in future product selection, when the salesperson of the next brand doesn't know what they're talking about and says it does work on fiberglass but I know it uses the exact same technology as the previous one where the salesperson said it doesn't work.

It's about educating yourself and not just accepting what you're told. Even the surveyor could be using a tool that doesn't give accurate readings.
As far as my memory goes... .... it seems many years ago sales persons actually studied and understood their product, but nowadays they tend not to.
I'll add that in some areas, this is not true. From my experience in the medical field, I have witnessed some sales persons who were quite knowledgeable about their product, it's application, and it's relevance to any particular client looking at their catalog.
But in the end... my belief is that we should be as educated as consumers as we can reasonably be, if only to understand when we're being fed erroneous information.
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Old 22-02-2017, 11:54   #21
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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Originally Posted by wsmac View Post
To clarify... I didn't start out with moisture meters.... that was but one small facet of this whole journey so far with me!
.
My main muddled point for this particular thread was supposed to be about the basic issue of determining what information was worthy of taking at face value and which information begs for more inquisition.
.
Unfortunately (although with the provided info and links... it's also fortunately), this thread is dominated by the issue of moisture meters.
I ran a search earlier and found several other threads on moisture meters that I will be reading amongst all the other links pertaining to the myriad of questions I have surrounding buying my first sailboat!
Then IMHO the answer to the main "question of the thread" is that time spent investigating moisture meters is not time well spent. Interesting but low priority. By the time you are close enough to buying a particular boat that moisture % of the laminate will matter it will make sense to have that checked during a survey by someone that has experience using his meter.
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Old 22-02-2017, 11:57   #22
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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My main muddled point for this particular thread was supposed to be about the basic issue of determining what information was worthy of taking at face value and which information begs for more inquisition.
There is no "face value" when it comes to boat maintenance tools and equipment. If you're buying a tool for a specific purpose, it's logical to confirm that the tool works for its intended application. That's fairly easy to do, as you've discovered.

Far more difficult to confirm can be processes and procedures..craftsmanship if you will, when it comes to the "how" of something. Learning to use a moisture meter effectively, in a way that gives meaningful, useful results, is something that requires experience.
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Old 22-02-2017, 12:04   #23
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

Never thought moisture meters were used to measure water in fiberglass, which is always going to be minimal, but water in the core between the layers of glass. How well it does this is up in the air but they do seem have some validity in sensing core moisture. The problem is how to interpret the readings, weed out the false positives, and discover the unregistering wet areas.

It's like drugs that get used for off label maladies. Stugeron is one which reportedly works great for ameliorating seasickness but it's tested medical use is for phsycological disorders.
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Old 22-02-2017, 12:05   #24
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pirate Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
There is no "face value" when it comes to boat maintenance tools and equipment. If you're buying a tool for a specific purpose, it's logical to confirm that the tool works for its intended application. That's fairly easy to do, as you've discovered.

Far more difficult to confirm can be processes and procedures..craftsmanship if you will, when it comes to the "how" of something. Learning to use a moisture meter effectively, in a way that gives meaningful, useful results, is something that requires experience.
Like the new Avatar..Less 'Crabby'..
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Old 22-02-2017, 17:42   #25
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
When in doubt, learn who the trustworthy contributors are on this and other boating forums.

Maine Sail is one of the go-to folks. Calder's book are another.

If I had a penny for every electrical system question or incorrect reply on boating forums , I wouldn't be sitting here helping out, I'd be on a 57 foot yacht cruising the South Pacific. Since I'm not , I put this together,, many excerpts I have used to answer individual questions. It includes many links to posts Maine Sail has made on other forums than his own website.

Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101

That's how I learned. Books, internet, "trust but verify."
I'll second that. I was only thinking along these lines yesterday. I do not know of any other subject with so much hand me down wrong information, its incredible. I have mates wives that know very little about boats (although they live aboard) give me advice on boat purchasing etc. Everyone has an opinion that their best mates neighbors brothers dog passed on to them!!

Its a hard one , experience is the best teacher, experience enables you to quickly discriminate between people that know and people that claim to know.

In regards to surveyors!!!!!! I've met ONE that I trust and would go to for advice, im sure there's others but I just haven't met them, and without experience how do you know a good one from a not so (fool) good one?

Ultimately you bumble ass your way through and earn your education.

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Old 22-02-2017, 17:49   #26
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
When in doubt, learn who the trustworthy contributors are on this and other boating forums.

Maine Sail is one of the go-to folks. Calder's book are another.

If I had a penny for every electrical system question or incorrect reply on boating forums , I wouldn't be sitting here helping out, I'd be on a 57 foot yacht cruising the South Pacific. Since I'm not , I put this together,, many excerpts I have used to answer individual questions. It includes many links to posts Maine Sail has made on other forums than his own website.

Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101

That's how I learned. Books, internet, "trust but verify."
That's not the way to go....hoping you know the right guy that might be correct on an internet forum

When in doubt, study the subject yourself online (not on a forum) or with the correct books. Go to the library!

Why would you trust an unknown guy on the internet because another unknown person on the internet said he's my guy? I like him.

Could be these guys just have a bromance going and like to agree with each other.......
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Old 22-02-2017, 17:51   #27
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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Like the new Avatar..Less 'Crabby'..
Don't worry boatie, I've still got enough crabby left in me for you.
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Old 22-02-2017, 18:17   #28
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
That's not the way to go....hoping you know the right guy that might be correct on an internet forum

When in doubt, study the subject yourself online (not on a forum) or with the correct books. Go to the library!

Why would you trust an unknown guy on the internet because another unknown person on the internet said he's my guy? I like him.

Could be these guys just have a bromance going and like to agree with each other.......
Trust the unknown guy online or who wrote the book instead? Its the same thing but with less history. Take mainesail or minaret, their experience in their area shows through, the Cates 30 years cruising ( I think they know something) A64 mechanical experience , Polux modern boats , the list goes on.......after following this forum for a couple of years you start seeing a consistence in regards to certain contributors, some know and some think they know! Theres alot of rubbish published in a forum like this but there is also alot of knowledge that gets pasted down in daily conversations by people with real world experience that are doing, have done it and have learnt.

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Old 22-02-2017, 18:22   #29
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

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That's not the way to go....hoping you know the right guy that might be correct on an internet forum...

...Could be these guys just have a bromance going and like to agree with each other.......
Not sure about bromances although there seems to be some sort of kinship thing going on in the thread between Suijin and Boatman61! But I'm a newbie here so what do I know?
.
My take on Internet Pros is this.... Information I get from ANY source is suspect until double checked with a different source.
I tend to upset some of my Facebook family and friends in this area especially!
They seem to like their Memes and so-called news sites that feed their emotional needs more than their intellectual needs!
And THAT'S why I disabled my FB account these past months... just don't need to have 'stupid' flashing in front of my face all the time!
.
I am old enough to remember how to hold a book, turn the page, and read the words, plus... my medical experience has trained me to be more of a skeptic or at least to use critical thinking such that I do my best to verify details I feel are important enough. Some stuff I take at first bite and not worry about, but most stuff I like to know more about. :grin:
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Old 22-02-2017, 18:44   #30
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Re: Do you accept common practices without deeper investigation?

wsmac,

You've shown a number of instances wherein, for a lack of specific knowledge, you have made erroneous assumptions.

The one that could get you a nasty burn is the assumption that all fuels are the same because they cook. In terms of usage on a boat in a seaway, the alcohol stoves that require priming are dangerous because you can hardly see the flame from spilled alcohol, and it may be running over the cabin sole toward your bare foot. Also, alcohol cooks more slowly than propane or diesel. All fuels have their issues. They are not the same just because they all will cook food.

Perhaps you would benefit from changing your learning paradigm. The transition from dirt dwelling to water will teach you lots. Just loosen up about it. We all make mistakes from which we learn. Even on the water in pursuit of a desired lifestyle. We're just all fallible! We can't control everything, no real point in trying. Edge a little into the feeling your way along realm, not overthinking.

Me, I try to emulate Boatman 61's succinctness, but I fail miserably, year after year! True. Doing it again here.

Peace, bro,


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