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Old 22-07-2015, 22:11   #31
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

It is impossible to make a blanket statement that will fit all the time.

May I suggest that there is no magic in buying a cheap boat. These are the rules:

1) Boats depreciate, just like anything else. It turns out that the depreciation curve is pretty much the same for a boat as a car as an airplane etc. Steep depreciation initially, eventually leveling out to little if any depreciation at some point.

2) Rule #1 tells us that old boats cost less. Not because they are inherently unreliable, just because they are further down the depreciation curve.

3) Fiberglass boats are plastic. Plastic, as mankind has discovered, pretty much never breaks down. Everything other than the hull and deck (not made of plastic) will eventually deteriorate.

4) Boats need maintenance. It is all those "other things" that need maintenance.

5) All of those "other things" have to be replaced periodically. How often depends on a lot of different things.

6) Folks buy wrecks and make them lovely works of art. Folks buy pristine boats and let them rot by not maintaining them.

8) Whatever you pay, count on getting that amount back, or less when you sell. You will spend a ton more in routine maintenance but you will not get that money back in "added value". I would like to add however you most likely will get that money back in added enjoyment and pride of ownership.

There is a rule in finance - use other people's money. Oddly enough, that works in boats as well. The money the previous owner spent on maintenance is that "other people's money".

9) If you don't want to spend $3000-$5000 / 5 years of age of the boat, buy a boat that has been well maintained. Otherwise, count on it.

You can get badly burned buying an old boat. See rule #9.

10) Don't get sucked into marketing hype.

a) 80% of the work has been done.
b) This boat will be worth 47 bajillion dollars when you finish fixing it.
c) Etc. Etc.

Sometimes those things are true. A is true more often than B is true. Sometimes folks invest a TON of money and simply run out of steam. Or die and the estate sells the boat. But likely it is just hype - and a red flag. If you ever read these things, be very careful.

Most boats will never be worth more than a small percentage over the average selling price.

So I don't care what boat you buy, nor the average price you will be forced to pay, the rules above seem to be true.

Remember I said no magic. Pay particular attention to rules #2, #9 and #10.
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Old 22-07-2015, 22:37   #32
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
My address growing up? 1632 3rd Street, Yuma AZ 85364. The new owners have fixed the place up a bit.
THAT is too funny. I lived out in Bard, about 1/2 way to Laguna dam. 12 miles exactly into town, across the old 4th ave bridge to 1st St. My mom moved into town after I left, so that my younger sisters could legally attend Yuma High. My older sister and I illegally attended.

She still lives way out on county 8th 1/2 - Yavapai Ln.

Small world.

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Old 22-07-2015, 23:03   #33
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

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Originally Posted by Kerrpapa View Post
Ok, maybe I should share some information that may help clear some things up. ….
That experience does make a difference.

Based on what you wrote, it appears you don't mind getting your hands dirty with boats.

Good luck on your choice.
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Old 22-07-2015, 23:48   #34
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

This is one I think is seriously nice. $13K. One of the Hunter Cherubini 33'. Nice boat, good condition. Slightly above average price for the boat. Looks to be well above average condition.

Hunter Cherubini 33' Sailboat 1981 Nice
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Old 23-07-2015, 00:03   #35
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

To JWCOLBY54:

What follows is written in a friendly and neutral tone of voice. It is written to help you and others see things a bit differently, or from a different perspective. I am writing it to help clarify a few things. I am making this effort because I like to give others the opportunity to clarify their positions and experience.
____________

I think anyone that reads your multiple long posts "gets you" that you like your new (to you) boat and that you are convinced you made the right choice for you and that the boat fits your own budget. You are happy with your choice. We get that. It is natural to be in love with your first or new boat.

You might think I disagree with you on all points. I don't. In fact, I empathize with people who want to buy a boat they can afford and go cruising. That is a common goal for anyone visiting or members of this forum.

And I wish you the best of luck with your new boat and adventure in sailing.
______________

Where is the big difference in how I see this issue?

Here is my analogy to illustrate this:

From what you have described so far, I liken it to hearing a person who has never bought or driven a car who then goes to a group of people and loudly and repeatedly and at length tells experienced drivers and car owners about the "great deal" they got on a 1970 Mercedes Benz sedan they purchased for just $200, without a test drive. It may seem like a "great deal" to the buyer when seen on the car lot, especially if they have no experience with cars with which to compare. And it is not uncommon to hear someone boasting about their own smarts in buying a "good deal." But, the "good deal" is yet to be seen in practical use. And, what may appear to be a good deal to the person who lacks experience or knowledge, is simply "problems waiting to happen or be discovered" to another who has the experience to see the underlying or potential problems and potential hidden costs with the item.
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My Advice?
I think newbies would be smart to listen to the advice given by people on this forum who have considerable experience with boats, extensive experience sailing, and the experience of buying, refitting, and owning multiple boats over many years. That kind of experience is worth listening to carefully. I certainly value it and it is one of the primary reasons I come here to learn from those who have more experience than I do in many areas.
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I expect you feel differently or have a different opinion. That is OK. We can all reach different conclusions and have different opinions.

But, the opinions I respect the most generally come from those with the most experience.

I question your experience with your boat and with sailing in general.

Unless I am mistaken:

1. This is your first big sailboat purchase.


More importantly…

2. You have little or no sailing experience on sailboats. In fact, in late April of this year, when you joined the forum, you wrote: "I have never sailed.."

Why does that matter?
I think that experience sailing matters in the issue of making the best choice in a boat and also in safely sailing a boat offshore and in understanding the limitations and risks and behavior and safe operation of any boat.

In this thread and in some others, you have been very outspoken in your criticism of advice given by some very experienced members of this forum who have tried to offer their experienced views of what pitfalls a newbie boat buyer should try to avoid.

Of course experience does not necessary mean someone is right in all matters. But, real experience is something that cannot be downloaded from a website or even gotten by reading books on sailing.

You have challenged some relatively experienced members of this forum in this thread and in others. You even make snarky remarks about their honesty. Frankly, I think you are not "winning friends" with your approach. From what I see, the others have considerable experience you do not have.

Please answer the following questions to help us understand your own experience level today:

1. How long have you owned your new/old boat (the OI33)?

2. How many miles have you sailed your new/old boat?

3. How many miles have you sailed your new/old boat offshore?

4. How much experience do you have sailing (controlling, not as a passenger) other sailboats?


If you answer those four questions above, it may help you gain some respect for your comments on this forum. At the very least, it should clarify some things regarding your sailing experience on sailboats.

I hope this helps you and others.
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Old 23-07-2015, 00:34   #36
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

These threads get more interesting everyday! I was just going to add, about the hot shower thing, my friend with the Cheoy Lee just got a Coleman portable water heater for his boat. I think it is a bit of extravagance personally. But then in the winter time....
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Old 23-07-2015, 00:44   #37
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

If I had been smart and listened to "the old salts" I would have never purchased a boat, because I was told repeatedly I couldn't do it.

So chew on that.
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Old 23-07-2015, 22:07   #38
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
To JWCOLBY54:

What follows is written in a friendly and neutral tone of voice. It is written to help you and others see things a bit differently, or from a different perspective. I am writing it to help clarify a few things. I am making this effort because I like to give others the opportunity to clarify their positions and experience.
____________

I think anyone that reads your multiple long posts "gets you" that you like your new (to you) boat and that you are convinced you made the right choice for you and that the boat fits your own budget. You are happy with your choice. We get that. It is natural to be in love with your first or new boat.

You might think I disagree with you on all points. I don't. In fact, I empathize with people who want to buy a boat they can afford and go cruising. That is a common goal for anyone visiting or members of this forum.

And I wish you the best of luck with your new boat and adventure in sailing.
______________

Where is the big difference in how I see this issue?

Here is my analogy to illustrate this:

From what you have described so far, I liken it to hearing a person who has never bought or driven a car who then goes to a group of people and loudly and repeatedly and at length tells experienced drivers and car owners about the "great deal" they got on a 1970 Mercedes Benz sedan they purchased for just $200, without a test drive. It may seem like a "great deal" to the buyer when seen on the car lot, especially if they have no experience with cars with which to compare. And it is not uncommon to hear someone boasting about their own smarts in buying a "good deal." But, the "good deal" is yet to be seen in practical use. And, what may appear to be a good deal to the person who lacks experience or knowledge, is simply "problems waiting to happen or be discovered" to another who has the experience to see the underlying or potential problems and potential hidden costs with the item.
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My Advice?
I think newbies would be smart to listen to the advice given by people on this forum who have considerable experience with boats, extensive experience sailing, and the experience of buying, refitting, and owning multiple boats over many years. That kind of experience is worth listening to carefully. I certainly value it and it is one of the primary reasons I come here to learn from those who have more experience than I do in many areas.
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I expect you feel differently or have a different opinion. That is OK. We can all reach different conclusions and have different opinions.

But, the opinions I respect the most generally come from those with the most experience.

I question your experience with your boat and with sailing in general.

Unless I am mistaken:

1. This is your first big sailboat purchase.


More importantly…

2. You have little or no sailing experience on sailboats. In fact, in late April of this year, when you joined the forum, you wrote: "I have never sailed.."

Why does that matter?
I think that experience sailing matters in the issue of making the best choice in a boat and also in safely sailing a boat offshore and in understanding the limitations and risks and behavior and safe operation of any boat.

In this thread and in some others, you have been very outspoken in your criticism of advice given by some very experienced members of this forum who have tried to offer their experienced views of what pitfalls a newbie boat buyer should try to avoid.

Of course experience does not necessary mean someone is right in all matters. But, real experience is something that cannot be downloaded from a website or even gotten by reading books on sailing.

You have challenged some relatively experienced members of this forum in this thread and in others. You even make snarky remarks about their honesty. Frankly, I think you are not "winning friends" with your approach. From what I see, the others have considerable experience you do not have.

Please answer the following questions to help us understand your own experience level today:

1. How long have you owned your new/old boat (the OI33)?

2. How many miles have you sailed your new/old boat?

3. How many miles have you sailed your new/old boat offshore?

4. How much experience do you have sailing (controlling, not as a passenger) other sailboats?


If you answer those four questions above, it may help you gain some respect for your comments on this forum. At the very least, it should clarify some things regarding your sailing experience on sailboats.

I hope this helps you and others.
Ok I think you may have crossed a line there. Are we asking for resumes now? He has experience buying, owning and sailing a boat he is happy with. I think he makes very good points and MY resume isn't bad. As we mentioned, it boils down to what you think you NEED in a boat, and the original OP said he and his wife have experience roughing it and don't mind a little discomfort. To sound as though one is dismissing the reality of owning a less expensive older boats with fewer conveniences is going to get the attention of those of us older boat owners who are sailing happily, safely, comfortably, and less expensively, in great boats. Let the OP judge who to listen to. It is his journey. When he asks for some advice on a particular boat I am sure there will be many knowledgeable folks here to give great tips.
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Old 24-07-2015, 10:35   #39
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

A Refit Reality Check | Cruising World

This is a fascinating read. It reinforces that maintenance is required and the costs involved. And by the way, the article was written in 2002 and appears to discuss stuff happening in 1995.

I would like to quote a small part.

Quote:
Keeping Things In Perspective
So you see, it is not difficult to drop $40,000 or more into an older boat, even one that is in basically good condition! Suddenly, your $60,000 bargain has become more like a $100,000 cruiser, even without the latest electronics for the navigation station, and this assumes that you’ve done much of the work yourself and do not account for your sweat equity!
Despite the seemingly high expense, the upgraded boat likely will cost not much more than half a comparably-equipped new boat. If you are careful to select an older cruising boat whose design and desirability have stood the test of time, your money will be well spent. If you select a boat design/model that is not popular, or is somewhat obscure, you may not be able to recoup your investment when you resell. Keep in mind that even a new boat is likely to need additional gear to make it ready for cruising.
Notice that his "older boat" is a $60K bargain. Furthermore he claims that even a 15 year old boat needs careful evaluation for this stuff. Which reinforces my point that picking some $K out of thin air and saying "you can't get much of a boat for less than $K" simply isn't very useful.

In this article Nigel says

Quote:
You can view an older boat as a worthwhile platform on which to launch your dreams of extended cruising economically. Indeed, for many people an old boat is the only way to get started.
So when folks come in here saying "I only have$10K to get in the game" we need to try really hard not to say "that isn't enough go home".

Instead it is absolutely useful to simply and objectively inform the prospective boat owner that they will face, regardless of the boat selected, new or old, continual and expensive maintenance costs down the road.

That is true, undeniable and useful. "That isn't enough go home" is undeniably false and useless.

If I am going to get in at $10K (and I am), I have to acknowledge that I am buying a hull. The interior woodwork is what it is, and in the absence of water will last till the end of time. Just like every other boat owner, I need to immediately take inventory, and start the never ending process of examining and replacing the systems as they age out.

And if I need a resume for that to be useful to you, oh well.
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Old 24-07-2015, 11:40   #40
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

Mstrebe and jwcolby54...... why don't you guys just email each other? you can then go on for days and days without us having to watch your childplay?
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Old 24-07-2015, 11:56   #41
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Ok I think you may have crossed a line there. Are we asking for resumes now? He has experience buying, owning and sailing a boat he is happy with. I think he makes very good points and MY resume isn't bad. As we mentioned, it boils down to what you think you NEED in a boat, and the original OP said he and his wife have experience roughing it and don't mind a little discomfort. To sound as though one is dismissing the reality of owning a less expensive older boats with fewer conveniences is going to get the attention of those of us older boat owners who are sailing happily, safely, comfortably, and less expensively, in great boats. Let the OP judge who to listen to. It is his journey. When he asks for some advice on a particular boat I am sure there will be many knowledgeable folks here to give great tips.
Hi Don.
I am sorry you feel I have crossed a line. Perhaps it is just a misunderstanding of my position and questions and tone.

I assure you, I have no malice or mean spirit in my writing or mind. I am simply trying to clarify some things to help newbies who may read this thread because of its title. What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice too.
Don wrote:
Are we asking for resumes now?
No. I am not asking for a resume from anyone and I recognize that this forum is made up of members with a wide range of experience. I think it is great when newbies and Old Salts participate and communicate and I daily encourage newbies to the forum to post, comment, question, and explore the forum.

I am asking four simple questions to clarify how much experience JWColby has because he has repeatedly criticized the advice he is getting on this forum from experienced sailors and sailboat owners (who have many years experience owning sailboats).

I think it is a very fair set of questions to ask (anyone).

I still see no answer to those simple and clear questions at all coming from him (JWColby). Perhaps that is an answer in itself and one could see that and assume he has no experience with his boat or no time sailing etc. But, rather than assume that, I hope he will simply answer those four questions, clearly.

I consider it a "red flag" that anyone claiming to be a boat owner would refuse to answer or avoid answering those simple questions, clearly and honestly.

For example, I would ask those same questions of any skipper I considered sailing with on any boat. They seem like natural questions to me.

This is an open forum. And, on a forum like this it is common to see people mistake intent or "tone of voice." Hence, I use emoticons. I hope that helps.

I am not attacking anyone, including JWColby. I am simply asking questions for clarification and yet questions can be seen as attacks by some people. The goal of a sincere question is to get an answer. That helps us communicate and understand one another.
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Don wrote:
He has experience buying, owning and sailing a boat he is happy with.
That is questionable or unclear and I think it might be incorrect. Hence my questions that are focused on experience.

Anyone can buy a boat. That does not instantly make them an experienced sailor.

Anyone can buy any boat (in any condition). Whether a boat is a "good buy" or not is something that usually comes after some experience with it and is usually better judged by someone who has experience.

I asked those four clear questions, in the hope that he (JWColby) would answer them clearly and honestly. That would clarify things and allow others to understand his experience level. As I wrote before, I see that as pertinent because he refutes the advice of experienced sailors on this forum who have given their experienced opinions on topics related to boats, buying boats, etc.

_____________
Don wrote:
To sound as though one is dismissing the reality of owning a less expensive older boats with fewer conveniences is going to get the attention of those of us older boat owners who are sailing happily, safely, comfortably, and less expensively, in great boats.
Let me be very clear on a few points so you don't mistake my view and mistakenly attribute JWCOLBY's criticism of "some members" as being my view too.

Here are a few of MY views/opinions on Old Boats and Low Priced Boats:

1. I like and actually LOVE classic and traditional and OLD boats. I really like VERY old boats. In fact, some of the most attractive boats to me are about 100 years old!

2. I admire the people who restore OLD boats.

3. I admire the people who live simply on simple OLD boats.

4. I think OLD boats can be very nice (if in good condition) and would love to own one. But, I also recognize the potential real cost of the boat may be much higher than the asking price, if the boat requires substantial refit in order to make it seaworthy or to fix a broken engine etc.

5. I see many relatively OLD (1970s, 1980s) boats at low prices. Some are in very poor condition and so the price fits as many are so far gone. I see fewer boats at very low prices that are noteworthy, and I even go to the trouble to share some of those on this forum, because I recognize there are people who ARE looking for lower priced boats (less than $20K) and who are willing to fix them up.

6. I look at Old boats every day. And I occasionally see old boats that look to me like they would be a good fit for someone who is looking for boats priced under $20K.

7. I do not have any "bottom line" or position that one must spend $100K or more to get a suitable boat.
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So, please don't mistake my position or my intent.

I honestly hope everyone can find a boat they can enjoy and afford so that they can experience the joys of boats and sailing.

That includes JWColby too!
I am happy for him that he found a boat he wants to purchase and wish him the best of luck and success with it too! I hope he gets to fulfill his dreams of cruising too. I truly do.

But, I do also think that it is wise for any newbies to consider the experience of those who are giving advice here on the forum, especially when it comes to big decisions that may make a big difference in their own lives such as buying a big boat, taking their family offshore, etc.
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Old 24-07-2015, 13:36   #42
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

Yeah, Steady Hand, I get where you are coming from. I think he was taking issue with the implication that no one could realistically, safely and economically enter the cruising world on $10,000. I've done it, for less than that, barely, I've seen a few others, but I have been able to do it because of my sailing experience, and because of my more Spartan, shall we say, definition of cruising. AND I am not planning to cross oceans, I am just coastal island cruising, which is what the OP mentioned interest in. Then again there isn't too much more I would add to cross an ocean... hmmm, that gets me thinking... but I digress. In any event I think most Newbies are going to be sifting through all the advice, taking into account the experiences of the advisors, but I agree with you that advisors should be upfront about their range of experiences. BTW I am not a fan of ALL old boats. Those from the 70s are mostly those I would not care to own at any price. Well let me edit that, they would not be on my short list of preferred boats. (I don't want to anger some of my friends here!) But from the 60s, there are some real bargains available. You can't find boats built like that now for 10x the price. On bluewaterboats.org there is a recent posting of a TOTAL refit of a Pearson Rhodes 41 hull #8, 1964 I think. It is an amazing album of photos of how to refit a boat, any boat. But it was worth it to the owner to go to all that expense for THAT boat because it is such a beautiful design and such a solid hull, still, to start with. That is not a $10,000 boat to start with, more like $40,000, but my point is, for anyone shopping around, boats built in the 60s should not be regarded in the same way as those from about '71 onward. I saw a Pearson Triton for sale in San Francisco that was bristol, just beautiful, and I think they were asking $16,000. And there may still be a Columbia 29 for sale that is also bristol in Dana Point I think, totally refit and they were asking something north of $22,000. I doubt they will get it, but those boats were better than new and you'll never find a new boat of that quality for anywhere near that price. Some of the younger Newbies might consider that tip when shopping.
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Old 24-07-2015, 14:56   #43
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Mstrebe and jwcolby54...... why don't you guys just email each other? you can then go on for days and days without us having to watch your childplay?
LOL why are you here?

I wasn't addressing mstrebe, I was addressing YOU.
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Old 24-07-2015, 15:14   #44
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

Quote:
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I am asking four simple questions to clarify how much experience JWColby has because he has repeatedly criticized the advice he is getting on this forum from experienced sailors and sailboat owners (who have many years experience owning sailboats).

I think it is a very fair set of questions to ask (anyone).
And I think it is nonsense to distract from the fact that I am saying things that make sense.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I give a rat's patuty about you or your opinion.

I have had a BUNCH of "experienced" sailors, none of whome appear to have actually TRIED to buy an inexpensive boat, tell mi it can't be done.

OTOH I have also see folks who HAVE done exactly that. OTOH I have done it. So you tell me, should I care about their opinion? Should I shut up because they are talking nonsense, BUT... they have sailed for years and I have not?

I have written several posts with actual useful advice which you appear to be simply dismissing because I haven't answered your four questions. BUT... you nevber disect my thoughtful responses and discuss why they are wrong. Instead you continue to simply cast me as inexperienced and these others as experienced, and so they "count".

Do I SOUND impressed?

In fact, I simply do not care whether YOU (personally and individually) ever read my posts. In fact I am amazed that you are here harassing me.

So PLEASE, hold your breath and wait for the answers for your four questions. Concentrate REAL hard on holding your breath.

When I do answer your questions, THEN go ahead and post again.

Thanks!
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Old 24-07-2015, 15:33   #45
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Re: Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

I went to college. I had professors who were IDIOTS, full of themselves. Others who were brilliant and useful. It happens that I also met people who didn't have a professor's credentials but were worth listening to anyway.

What I learned from that was that you can tout "experience" till the cows come home but the fact is that there are useful "experienced" people and useless "experienced" people. I also learned to listen, analyze and think for myself.
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