Complete Newbie with all the old and tired questions

[Kerrpapa]

Hello folks,
First let me say, I am not a sailor. I have been on sailboats and I know the basic workings and some concepts and terms. However, I have never sailed myself. I am a powerboat owner who has many years of large lake experiences with our 32ft cuddy cabin. So boating is not completely foreign to me. Even so, I understand there is a world of difference between lake power boating and coastal boating/sailing.

To my enquiry. I am 52 and in good, decent shape. I have a dream of retiring within 10 years and spending a few years coastal cruising with my wife (She's 46 and in good shape as well). We only want to cruise the east coast. Not venture offshore too far, maybe losing site of land every once in awhile in perfect weather, but coming back to anchor, moor or dock at night. We would like to spend as time we wanted in port (Say, St. Augustine...) for however long we want and then move along when ever we felt the desire. Time and pace would not be our priority. Safety, ease of handling (sailing, singlehanded, docking...etc), reliability, convenience and comfort are the top priorities. I don't mind doing regular cleaning and maintenance (as all boats need it), but I don't want to spend most of my time doing it. It's supposed to be a retirement! I intend on taking courses and gaining some sailing experience before this dream begins. However, I would still be at best, a novice sailor. I understand and respect this. I fully realize my limitations could be a matter of life and death. So ego is not an issue. Being realistic and safe as possible is number one. The fun, relaxation, enjoying spending time with my wife, the ocean and the adventure are next on the list.

Taking all these into consideration, what would be a good boat for us? A good length? A good used brand not too expensive? A Sloop? Ketch? Sloop/Cutter? Trawler? Trawler?Sail? (I have basic knowledge of the difference, but welcome any and all advice/education) What type of keel? Draft? Sail coverage? Engine size? What are some "must haves" for things such as navigation, safety, anchoring, putting up and taking down sails ...etc (again, I know about some of these from lake power boating, but as said before, I know offshore cruising is a whole different animal). We are at square one planning stage. Oh, and one last thing, we are not wealthy. So it would have to be an older boat that I would put a few years of sweat equity into getting her prepared. I refurbished our 30 yr old cuddy. So 30-40 year old boats do not scare me as long as they are not one step away from being scuttled or cost more to update and fix than buying a newer one.

I know these are a lot of newbie questions that will annoy many (sorry), but be a fun challenge for others who like to research, answer questions and share their knowledge and advice.

I am open to any and all advice and education.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[Waterway Guide]

Welcome aboard! Lots of questions…so few objective answers…1st: I’d recommend shoal draft since you don’t plan on much offshore. More navigation, docking and anchoring options, less issues with shoaled channels.
2nd: Get a slow boat. A sailboat or trawler will be much more economical than a planing powerboat. Go slow and enjoy the ride (safer, too).
3rd: Go as small as you can be comfortable with. Not only will dockage, maintnenance and fuel be less expensive for you, smaller boats are easier to handle. Compare boats on layout and liveable space. One 35’ sailboat might feel more liveable than a different 40’ boat. I know couples who are perfectly comfy on their 28’-35' boats.
Good luck finding your boat and getting ready for a fantastic retirement! Happy cruising!

[mstrebe]

A few questions for you:

What is your realistic budget?

You mentioned how you plan to sail, which I would call "weekending" as opposed to "daysailing" or "cruising", but I might be wrong. Do you intend to spend weeks or months aboard at a time, or come and go from your home port?

Now on to advice. I'm only going to talk about sailing, since I have no experience with motor vessels.

I'm 45, my wife is 40, and our plans are very similar. I've been sailing for twenty years and am on my 4th sailboat.

Firstly, join a charter club and learn to sail with them. You'll be able to start on small 22 footers and as you certify and learn you'll get up to the 40 boats. This is the entire range of boats you should consider, and you'll be able to quickly narrow down what you're comfortable with. You'll also be ready for your ultimate boat when the time comes. This is much less expensive than buying the wrong boat or finding out that your wife doesn't actually like sailing.

Ability to single-hand is a must as far as I'm concerned, and that limits you to sloops 42' and below IMHO. Others will chime in, but sail handling becomes increasingly difficult the more you have to handle and when things go wrong. Rigging complexity doubles the amount of maintenance on a fiberglass hull as well.

Look at 37' sloops +/- 3 feet depending on your budget, and prefer the smallest boat that's roomy enough for your requirements.

Buy a boat with an enclosed, inside shower. Warm water you can add, but it's difficult to find space for a shower on a boat that doesn't have one. This pretty much limits you to 33' plus in my experience. We have a separate shower from head, which is nice but not necessary.

Fin keel vs. full keel I have no opinion. I've owned both, neither is problematic in any real way as far as I'm concerned especially if you're not racing. On the east coast you might prefer a shoal draft which is easier to find in full keels.

I strongly prefer roller reefing mainsails and headsails. Roller reefing mainsails allow you to trim for any winds and remain on a comfortable heel. They're also far simpler to single-hand and allow you to get all the sails hoisted and furled from the cockpit, an essential element of single-handing in my opinion. Roller furling headsails are new technology that will be rare on boats older than 10 years. The next best thing is a sail-pack with lazy-jacks on slugs, which can also be completely managed from the cockpit and can be added to any boat.

Unless you already have a strong opinion, take a good look at catamarans as well as monohulls. For the type of sailing you're talking about, they're quite pleasant. I've never owned a cat, but I have sailed trimarans and like the speed of multis. In the size range you're looking at, Cats will have similar interior space to monos.

I would avoid all hull types except fiberglass in a boat more than 20 years old. I'm sure I'll take a lot of flack for this opinion as well, but fiberglass hulls are maintenance free compared to the rot, corrosion, and maintenance requirements of ferro, steel, aluminum, and wood hulls. Unless you prefer to maintain rather than sail your boat, stick exclusively to fiberglass.

On an older boat, be prepared to replace the sails, standing and running rigging, and some marine electronics. I would budget $3,000..$5,000 for every five years of age on a boat to bring it up to shipshape depending on your ability to get deals and do your own work. Boats over 20 years are going to require engine, transmission, shaft, and prop work if it hasn't already been done, as well as bottom fairing and paint. This is assuming you want a reliable boat; you can of course spend nothing and hope. If you use these numbers, you'll be able to compare the real value of boats of various ages.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Steadman Uhlich]

Howdy and Welcome Aboard CF Kerrpapa!

What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice, with the intent to help with a different POV. My questions are simply to clarify the matter of discussion.

You posted some good info in your intro. But, I think it also leaves some unanswered questions that can really matter.

I don't have enough time to edit this perfectly, so take it as free flowing help and what I can put together in a short time for you. Best I can do in limited time and with limited knowledge of some key points only you know now (e.g. budget).

You mentioned something about learning to sail, live aboard, and coastal sailing.
Those three things are very broad topics that can take a lot of research and there are many ways to go.

I will post some of my favorite tips for new members below.

________________

There is a free Cruiser's Wiki associated with this forum.
There is a LOT of free content in that wiki.
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According to your introduction post, it appears you have very limited to no sailing (on sailboats) experience at this point (if I am wrong about that, feel free to correct that or edit post a correction here to prevent others from thinking that). IF so, that is OK, as we all start that way.

I advise you spend some time getting aboard as many boats as possible to see what you find most comfortable and fitting your desire or comfort level to "live aboard." Leave the "offshore" issues till later, after you know how to sail and what you really need for water sailing">blue water sailing.

Put another way, and very simply:

Learn Boats and Sailing Before Buying a Big Sailboat.

Why? There are just TOO MANY possibilities with such a broad scope. You need to get some experience (sitting and standing and sailing) on a variety of boats (yourself) before anyone can help you narrow the field significantly and to get the best fit for you.
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Step One

Whenever I see a post asking about a boat or "help me find a boat that…" the first question that enters my mind is:

"What is your budget?"

With an adequate budget (funds or "asking price range") one can find a solution.

Without the adequate budget, it is asking folks to name what they would want, without necessarily any real fit for what you can buy.

My simple suggestion: Name the budget available for the purchase of the boat or the maximum asking or advertised price you would seriously consider spending.

Ask folks here to spend that amount for you, virtually, of course.

Once you name the budget (the maximum asking price you would consider for a boat), you will narrow the field considerably.

At this point, I think the most important thing to do is to establish your budget.
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Step Two

Big advice: take your wife and go for a sail on a boat that is about 35 feet long.

Why that size?
Because that is a moderate (medium) sized sailboat that is common for couples to sail double handed. It is neither "too big" nor "too small" for MOST people. If you do a test sail with a larger boat (45 feet), you are likely to be spoiled. If you go on a daysail on a 25 foot boat, you will likely feel it is "too small" for living on (for most people).

1. Start with a sailboat. Hire someone to take you out to go sailing with just the two of you as passengers. You need to go just as a couple (with a skipper).

Key Point! Do not just go on a "sunset cruise" on a big party sailboat that merely motors around with sails up for looks. Do NOT just motor around. Make sure you get the boat sailing in wind that makes it move as fast as possible for that boat.

Ask the skipper to make sure you get to sail at "hull speed" (usually about 6-7 knots). When you do, you will then appreciate how fast (or slow) a boat may go and how the ride feels. Is it fast enough? The skipper will put you on the wheel to steer. Is it fun? Is it fun enough? Pay a skipper to do this as a PRIVATE day sail. No need for you to know how to sail a boat yet. Make sure she (and you) feel comfortable when a sailboat heels. Many people do NOT like this (tilted) feeling, so they stick with power boats.

When you are ON that 35 foot sailboat, make sure you get your wife to lay down on the berth/bed on which you and she will possibly sleep in the future (this may be in the front or back end of the boat). Get in the bunk/berth next to her. See if you both feel comfortable in the smaller space/cabin/stateroom/berth. If it is uncomfortable, you might need a larger sailboat. Or a motor yacht (trawler).

Another tip: Look for a boat that has some kind of shower on it. It may be just a shower head on a hose in the head.
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Here are a few QUICK comments to address a few of your questions above. These are now just GENERALIZATIONS and may not fit your real circumstances or your budget or real desires or needs. I hesitate to put them in writing, but I am sure you want to get something (feedback) from your nice detailed introduction post.

1. Consider a trawler.
Look at about 35-40 footers. You can purchase one from 1980s for about $50K - $60K in good condition. They will have a low horsepower diesel engine (or two) compared to most motor yachts, but that means less fuel consumption (and lower cruising speeds of about 7 knots). In general, they have much more space inside the boat, and they are something easy to learn to "drive."

Disclaimer: While I would very happily LIVE on a trawler, I am a sailor at heart and nothing compares to actually sailing along with the wind (no engine used) and the pleasure of enjoying that feeling. So, I may lean towards a sailboat. But, I would also consider the desire and comfort of my spouse. ICW).

2. IF you plan on doing much cruising on the ICW (Intra Coastal Waterway), then IF you are looking at sailboats, limit yourself to those which have a mast that does not exceed 64 feet. That is the limit for most of the fixed bridges. Most medium sized sailboats will be OK (in this regard). Just be aware as you shop.

3. IF you cruise the ICW, be aware of DRAFT of your sailboat. It is notoriously shallow in many places and having a boat with less than 6 feet of draft will make it easier on you.

Big Advice?
4. At this point, don't worry about equipment or different types of keels or sail plans (sloop or cutter etc.). Just find a boat on which you feel "comfortable" in space and how it moves in the water (under power or sail). IF you do, then you begin to better define what you want.

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Looking for Quick Answers?

This is the best and fastest method I have found to the answers I seek here.
Since you are relatively new to the forum, here is my favorite friendly forum search tip: Look at the green menu bar on the forum pages for the drop down "Search" menu. Click on that to drop down a list of search functions. From that drop down menu select the GOOGLE CUSTOM search feature (the second box down) and then enter several different descriptive terms for your topic of interest. That will do a Custom google search of ONLY this site and it is likely to find answers to your questions or results for you. Note: this is different from using the regular forum search box or field. Also note, this is NOT found if you use the CF app. It IS found if you use a web browser such as Safari, etc.

[Don C L]

The boat that comes to mind for you is a Nonsuch 30, but it may stretch your budget too far. It is easy to handle and singlehand, exceptionally roomy, well-built, sails very well and with a diesel that is not too old or with too many hours is a great boat for what you describe. In my own case I do have a few years of experience but I wanted something like what you are describing and I kept an eye out for a Columbia 29 (1962) till I found one. It is a solid little coastal cruiser, but it is not very roomy by modern standards. It has a number of things I like, it is not too big (big boats have bigger problems and bigger expenses, and I can pull up the anchor without a windlass,) it has a molded in long keel and rudder attached which is strong and worry-free but not as fast as modern boats, and it has a very solid hull (most boats built in the 60s have very strong hulls, better still than many built in the 70s or 80s.) There are a lot of boats around with the Atomic 4 gasoline engine, but I'd recommend finding a boat with a good little diesel instead. Atomvoyages.com (find the "Good Old Boat" list) and Bluewaterboats.org (also find the boats to vote for there) are two good sites to browse through. Atomvoyages has a lot of good advice I think. sailboat-cruising.com also has some good tips. If you find a boat you like let us know, I am sure there are many folks here who can give you firsthand info on them. Peasons, Albergs and Bristols and others, from the '60s still have very good reputations as economical and sturdy coastal cruisers. A Pearson Vanguard might be a good choice. Cape Dories are also popular and seaworthy. You are welcome to go look at the album of shots of my boat in my profile to help give you an idea of one kind of boat. One of these in good condition and a good diesel would probably be around $10,000. Not sure what your budget is. Have fun! Start with a little fun sailboat to learn on! Good luck!

[Kerrpapa]

Wow guys!! Thanks for all of your advice. I read every word and took every thing said as solid advice. Like I said, I am a complete newbie with no misconceptions of my lack of knowledge and experience in regards to sailing and offshore boating. All of your posts were exactly what I was looking for. It is clear that a budget is first priority with gaining experience, knowledge and preferred comfort zone (for wife and me) second. Now to add some missing info:

Budget:
For a boat that needs work, but nothing major:$10-15k (with $ put into her as time to sail approaches. Say the last 3 years before retirement Is this realistic?). Does not have to circumnavigate. Safe, reliable, single hand, docking etc. Fast is not important.

Where planning to sail/motor:
Down the coast offshore mostly with possible side trips in the ICW. Getting into blue water some, but not unless weather is perfect and not for very long (wife).

Hopefully living onboard for a few months or year/s and staying in different ports, but docking from time to time to maybe fly home or see family.

I have 10 years to work on all of this. This is my starting point.

Again, thanks for all of the input. I take it all for what it is: advice, constructive critiques and wealth of experience.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Kerrpapa

Not venture offshore too far, maybe losing site of land every once in awhile in perfect weather, but coming back to anchor, moor or dock at night. We would like to spend as time we wanted in port (Say, St. Augustine...) for however long we want and then move along when ever we felt the desire. Time and pace would not be our priority. Safety, ease of handling (sailing, singlehanded, docking...etc), reliability, convenience and comfort are the top priorities.

I would call that liveaboard. I just purchased a 70s Morgan out island 33' for that same purpose. It was designed for the charter trade, and is short but wide and so feels roomy. If you have money then go newer. Maybe a little longer.

[mstrebe]

I don't think $15K is realistic. Yes, you will find boats up to 33' in that range, but they will have serious issues, which are going to cost you an equal amount to make seaworthy. A boat large enough for a couple to live aboard at that price will be something like a 70s era Hunter or Ranger, with a near dead engine and blown-out sails. Rigging will need replacement. Electronics will be dead. You'll be $4000 for cheap new sails, $8000 for an engine replacement, $4000 in re-rigging, $4000 in electronics. Ultimately you'll spend more overall than just starting from an appropriate base, which I would say is $35K at a minimum.


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[Don C L]

Well, I can add that a friend of mine just bought a 1970 Cheoy Lee Luders 30 in very good shape for $12,000. It is a solid boat, sails well. True, it only has a main and a jib, but they are in good shape. Previous owner was getting it fixed up and got most of the hard part done. Rigging, mast, boom all new and beefy. Interior all re-done, leaky teak decks replaced with fiberglass etc. I think he was getting it ready for some serious cruising and then stopped and let it sit for a few years. Hull was prepped for painting but never done, and the old Volvo MD7A engine had low hours but had a lot of the black goo plugging up the cooling system. We pulled the engine out and he has a friend who is opening it up to clean it and replace gaskets and hoses. It should be good to go for another 5 years or so, probably more! Just remember when shopping for boats, there is the asking price and the selling price, of course. They can be far apart sometimes. It is best to buy a boat like that, where someone has kept the boat up and was getting the hard parts done (and making the big expenditures) and then decided to give it all up. A pure project boat can be a headache, and not necessarily a bargain at all. Things vary around the country but I have seen some nice, capable boats in the 10-15K range but often they sell fast. Again, I am thinking mostly of the boats built in the 60s. It is hard to find any newer boats in your price range that are built that well. What mstrebe says is often true but I have seen (what I consider) bargains out there too. I would say if you are thinking of 12K for the boat, even one in good shape, think another 6-10K for "stuff." But for now go have fun sailing! Get a Laser or some other little fun boat and go every afternoon you have free and you'll catch the bug and be able to judge your preferences much better!

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by mstrebe

I don't think $15K is realistic. Yes, you will find boats up to 33' in that range, but they will have serious issues, which are going to cost you an equal amount to make seaworthy. A boat large enough for a couple to live aboard at that price will be something like a 70s era Hunter or Ranger, with a near dead engine and blown-out sails. Rigging will need replacement. Electronics will be dead. You'll be $4000 for cheap new sails, $8000 for an engine replacement, $4000 in re-rigging, $4000 in electronics. Ultimately you'll spend more overall than just starting from an appropriate base, which I would say is $35K at a minimum.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Excuse me but may I just say...Hooey!

That is because you have never tried to find one.

Every single poster in this forum has their own individual idea of what is the minimum you can pay for a "good boat". Believe me I know because I have been told $150K is the MINIMUM for a good boat. Those who only have $10K do just fine finding boats. Those who have $150K insist it can't be done.

There are THOUSANDS of boats for sale out there. Yep many are "projects". Many others have been taken care of and are just old. An old, well taken care of boat is going to be cheap. Just because a boat is "70s" does NOT mean a blown out motor and dead sails.

But you can go on believing that. In fact you WILL go on believing that.

In the meantime I just found a 1974 33' OI for $10K. And yes it took me 4 months of looking. The last TWO owners had done all the maintenance, tuned the rigging, replaced the engine. The last owner had already bought a new boat and wanted this one sold. He wanted more than $10K but he took $10K.

And no, it does NOT have $25K of electronics. But it floats, sails and motors. It is in great shape. Good sails. Good engine. Old. Did I mention 1974?

I find it amusing that EVERYONE says you have to take what you pay for the boat and pay that same amount for upgrades to get it sea worthy.

Well... do the math. I buy a well taken care of OLD boat for $10K and if I have to double that? WELL under the $35K you say I have to start with. But so far I have paid $545 for TWO top of the line standard horizon VHF radios, main and hand held.

So one final thing. The man says he has $10K. You tell him to go home, he can't even think about it for under $35K? STARTING? Sorry buddy, you really can't (afford to) play in this game.

I say ignore these folks telling you what they think is the minimum for a "good boat". That is THEIR minimum.

What is the old saying... "If you think you can't do something, you're right!"

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Excuse me but may I just say...Hooey!

That is because you have never tried to find one.

Every single poster in this forum has their own individual idea of what is the minimum you can pay for a "good boat". Believe me I know because I have been told $150K is the MINIMUM for a good boat. Those who only have $10K do just fine finding boats. Those who have $150K insist it can't be done.

There are THOUSANDS of boats for sale out there. Yep many are "projects". Many others have been taken care of and are just old. An old, well taken care of boat is going to be cheap. Just because a boat is "70s" does NOT mean a blown out motor and dead sails.

But you can go on believing that. In fact you WILL go on believing that.

In the meantime I just found a 1974 33' OI for $10K. And yes it took me 4 months of looking. The last TWO owners had done all the maintenance, tuned the rigging, replaced the engine. The last owner had already bought a new boat and wanted this one sold. He wanted more than $10K but he took $10K.

And no, it does NOT have $25K of electronics. But it floats, sails and motors. It is in great shape. Good sails. Good engine. Old. Did I mention 1974?

I find it amusing that EVERYONE says you have to take what you pay for the boat and pay that same amount for upgrades to get it sea worthy.

Well... do the math. I buy a well taken care of OLD boat for $10K and if I have to double that? WELL under the $35K you say I have to start with. But so far I have paid $545 for TWO top of the line standard horizon VHF radios, main and hand held.

So one final thing. The man says he has $10K. You tell him to go home, he can't even think about it for under $35K? STARTING? Sorry buddy, you really can't (afford to) play in this game.

I say ignore these folks telling you what they think is the minimum for a "good boat". That is THEIR minimum.

Yep.

And it boils down to what you really need. My boat cost me $4000, and maybe I have put another $3000 into it (some of which I may not have needed) and now I have a great little solid Sparkman and Stephens coastal cruiser. BUT I don't NEED an inboard, I am happy with the outboard. I don't need refrigeration, I don't need radar, I don't need pressure water, hot or cold. I don't even need a head and holding tank, I prefer the porta-potty. I have new rigging and great sails, new fancy radio with GPS, safety equipment. My only big expenditure on the horizon is an AIS transceiver. Some people need a shower. I have a solar shower. It's fine. But that's me. In any case good deals are out there if you can wait and you know what to look for. Experience you are building now will help with that.

[Kerrpapa]

On your advice, I looked at a few Morgan IO. I like what I see so far. There are a few in my price range. Of course we are a bit away from buying, but it's defiantly going on the list. Thanks!

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yep.

And it boils down to what you really need. My boat cost me $4000, and maybe I have put another $3000 into it (some of which I may not have needed) and now I have a great little solid Sparkman and Stephens coastal cruiser. BUT I don't NEED an inboard, I am happy with the outboard. I don't need refrigeration, I don't need radar, I don't need pressure water, hot or cold. I don't even need a head and holding tank, I prefer the porta-potty. I have new rigging and great sails, new fancy radio with GPS, safety equipment. My only big expenditure on the horizon is an AIS transceiver. Some people need a shower. I have a solar shower. It's fine. But that's me. In any case good deals are out there if you can wait and you know what to look for. Experience you are building now will help with that.

And this I think is the crux of the matter. Folks are all over the map on what they "need", and that is fine. If you NEED a washing machine and dryer, dish washer and water maker, then yea, there is no way you are getting that for $10K. Or $35K for that matter. But the folks that "need" (and can buy) that have no understanding of the less privileged, and so tell me that "you can't get a good boat for less than" some amount unimaginable to me. I just nod wisely, and ignore.

I can't afford any of that stuff, but I can buy a $10K old boat and have a blast just the same.

So can anyone else that can decide they don't "need" that stuff.

I learned the hard way that inconvenience isn't fun, but I can allow that to keep me home... or not. I vote for just doing it any way.

[HBrew]

Kerrpapa - I'd like to second what Steady Hand said. I too am 52 and I am about 9 months and 3,000 sea miles further down the track you are considering. I started with training, which involved learning on lots of different boats and I have just completed my first charter. What I can tell you, based on my experience so far, is that my criteria for the boat I will eventually buy are very different today than they were 9 months ago.

So my advice is learn on other people's boats, as many as you can. Each one you experience will teach you something new about what you really need. Then, eventually, you'll be able to answer all your questions yourself.

Good luck!

[Mplight]

OK,
Im going to join the fray, age 55, my wife and I started sailing 3 years years ago. Found an O'Day 22 for 1800.00 learned quite a bit daysailing in the water of Narragansett Bay, two year later we NEEDED and bigger boat.
searched ebay, craigs list and all sorts of sailboat classifieds. literally looked at dozens and dozens of boats, sailed a few: Pearson 30, Maxi Fenix, Bristol 32, etc. finally found an ebay listing for a '84 Barberis Show 30- Italian built Sloop. pretty nice shape for 11k- we motor sailed it from Manhasset Harbor NY to Rhode Island over two weekends in late October 2013. we had to replace a starboard freshwater tank and most of the plumbing- which we did ourselves- cost of materials 800.00. purchased new main, repaired genoa, 2500.00, faired hull, bottom paint and antifouling another 600.00. we still need to 'hook up' heat exchanger for hot water tank and get new faucets and shower head.
my point is: shop around there are a lot of deals out there you've got the time to learn (to sail), and get a feel for what you like.
enjoy!